How good are the Kershaw Kai Shun Onions really?

[barrabas74]

Thomas W, I and my g/f use the knives everyday. Like I said I really like em. I like them better than the wustoff set that I have. I recently deboned a front and hind quarters with the shun boning knife and the alton brown paring(I need pics I know). I thought it did fine and the edges held up great(its VG-10, so thats expected). I will try and get some pics of the angled handles by tonight to show why I like them.

 

[Thomas W]

Cliff, I guess when one of the premeir knife designers and makers in the world, puts his mind, time, and effort into creating a line of kitchen knives, he threw basic design and function out the window, and figured awkward was the way to go?

 

[Satrang]

Thomas, according to Cliff's rules, since Ken is being compensated for the designs and you work for the knife manufacturer (salesman) you cannot have un-biased opinions on the product.

 

[Saberman]

I was driving around thinking about this and something barrabas74 said about his knuckles and know hitting the board. I came back to my youth Hockey, and learning tto take a good slap shot. It's more than just cutting it correct leangth, it's the lie of the blade. If you don't know I found this.

The most important factor in the selection is the lie. This term describes the angle of the blade to the shaft. If this angle is wrong, the blade will not sit flat on the ice and will cause undue difficulty in stick handling and shooting. If possible, look for a stick with skates on. Many shops will also have a box to stand on that simulates the height of skates. Make sure that your stick is flat when you are at skate level and in a playing stance. If you have a stick or blade that you are confident is the proper lie, it is always a good idea to bring it for comparison when you are looking for a new one.

Now take that back to you kitchen or shop. Cutting, pounding, drawing, washing will be easier if everything lines up. Some things are better when your knucles touch the surface some things at you elbow.

With the lie of the blade you can change things and makes things better.

As for repeditive stress disorders and fixing them is identifing problems and comming up with ways to fix them. Like qwerty keyboards, when will we switch over to better system.

For me I don't have the money to experiment and missed the pass-a-round.

 

[the possum]

For working on stuff up on a kitchen counter, since I'm short, these handles may not give me the best angle. But when stooped over slicing meat on a shorter table or butcher block, the work is much lower. Then I can definitely see this angle really helping.

 

[kel_aa]

It seems knives with an angle differential seems popular these days, witness these Victorinox for instance:

Compare this 4" paring knife

To a more traditional:

A boning knife:

A chef's knife:

 

[hardheart]

butcher_block had a very attractive knife for sale with a similar angle, I didn't buy it because of that. I do have a necker and chef's knife by him, and both are great. The Kershaw Needs Work folder has something similar, it looks like a wharncliffe folder where the stop pin went missing. I myself can't see the use for such a design, but am sure someone can. I can see this working on larger kitchen knives, but not for paring duties. Others have mentioned the usefulness of the angle when chopping or doing other work pressing down on a cutting board. Do you actually do that with a paring knife? I can't see how to effectively do fine slices and controlled cuts with this.

 

[Walking Man]

Thomas W, I and my g/f use the knives everyday. .

Could you please specify exactly which models you use? Thank you, sir.

 

[KenOnion]

I really believe you should go to your local Williams Sonoma , Sur La tabe, or other gourmet shops in or arround your town and ask to roll one arround in your hand a bit befor you pass judgement. And if it still aint what your looking for don't buy it .

I studied the way chefs and chef students use there knives and how there trained to use there knives .Videotaped hours of regular cooks and world class chefs and studied this information in great detail. It took over a year and a half of studies and tests to develop this line of knives with ergonomics bieng one of the key issues . So to assume I don't know what I'm doing is silly.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

A boning knife

There are really extreme angles on boning knives, 90 degrees even.

Others have mentioned the usefulness of the angle when chopping or doing other work pressing down on a cutting board.

Many of the modern "ergonomic" grips are designed to put the wrist in a more neutral position on a cutting board. I think the images linked to in the above are really misleading, the blade should be lined parallel to the ground which would show that for the utility knife, but for the paring knife it still seems odd.

I can't see how to effectively do fine slices and controlled cuts with this.

Beyond control there is also the issue of tip work, a lot of paring is actually done gripping around or on the tip and having the blade straight produces the least force required to keep the knife stable. I do a lot of that with utility knives which is why I find the heavy blade angles to be really awkward and prefer utility knives such as Johnston's O1.

As for assumptions, Ken, lets be frank, you are perfectly aware that everyone says they do extensive R&D and they all claim expert status (long time maker, extensive user, large group of field testers etc.). In fact everyone who makes anything says that. Do you really accept all the products you see meet all claims made about them even if they lie directly opposite to your experience with products with similar attributes. When such happens you automatically assume you are wrong and that the maker must be right because why else would he do it? Seriously, that is how you think in such situations?

Regardless, do you not think that a more productive reply would be "Yeah, I can see where the design would look awkward as it certainly isn't a traditional paring knife. However I found that the traditional design had a lot of problems when I looked at in detail and talked to users and watched how they used it." Now further, instead of actually accepting this response to be taken on faith, because again everyone would defend their product in the exact same manner, why not actually discuss the details, what you observed, how the traditional design failed, how you corrected it, etc. .

If you want to be specific, I can show you a traditional paring knife I had custom made which was from a maker with 20 years of experience and you can use it specifically to illustrate the problems with the design. I can assure the maker won't mind any criticism you will have of his knife, just don't mention that you make knives from stainless steel. I can even send it to you if you want to handle/use it, but it is a very basic design and won't hold any surprises aside from the cutting ability due to the rather extreme cross section..

-Cliff

 

[Andrew Taylor]

Cliff, I guess when one of the premier knife designers and makers in the world, puts his mind, time, and effort into creating a line of kitchen knives, he threw basic design and function out the window, and figured awkward was the way to go?

As a time served professional chef, I would love to road test a Ken Onion variation of a Shun kitchen knife.

I received a package of knives today from British Columbia for a passaround and was thinking I could do a Kershaw Passaround with my Blue Bump, my Ti-ZDP Leek and was also thinking of adding my Kai Shun Santoku, even though I use it every day. I have just made a highly engineered 4 layer cardboard sheath for my Shun that fits perfectly, grips and protects the blade. I am working at a knifemakers temporarily and saw the owner making transit sheaths. I just improved on it.

 

[Andrew Taylor]

It seems knives with an angle differential seems popular these days, witness these Victorinox for instance:

A boning knife:

Kel_aa

A boning knife is held a completely different way, usually, overhand, (stabbing from above grip, as in the film Psycho). Only the tip and first inch of the blade are used in boning out joints of meat.

butcher_block had a very attractive knife for sale with a similar angle, I didn't buy it because of that. I do have a necker and chef's knife by him, and both are great. The Kershaw Needs Work folder has something similar, it looks like a wharncliffe folder where the stop pin went missing. I myself can't see the use for such a design, but am sure someone can. I can see this working on larger kitchen knives, but not for paring duties. Others have mentioned the usefulness of the angle when chopping or doing other work pressing down on a cutting board. Do you actually do that with a paring knife? I can't see how to effectively do fine slices and controlled cuts with this.

Hardheart.

The angle of using a knife on a chopping board is constant irrespective whether the knife is a 12" chopping knife or a paring knife. Using the tip to cut, you would normally hold the knife like a pen, so the angle of knife to handle is not critical. Using a knife for coring as mentioned, you would hold half of the handle and half of the blade with the thumb on the side of the blade for control. In this scenario, the angle of blade to handle is not a factor.

Cliff Stamp

The biggest fault with small knives like paring knives is skinning your knuckles on the chopping board because a paring knife has so little depth. I would think Ken Onion's design fixes that problem?

 

[hardheart]

Certainly I'm no chef, so my knifework in food prep is amateurish. I had tried to visualize such an angle holding the knife between index finger and thumb, as I do at times, and I guess that holding a knife like a pen, I would prefer it to be shaped like one as well. Some of my tip work I do with my index finger on the blade, as well as the 'painter's grip' with thumb on the flat. In all instances I like a straight handle. But that isn't just in the kitchen, I like neutral handle shapes in general so I can vary my grips easily with no bias to any. The angle of the handle of the paring knife, with the blade flat to the cutting surface, could be mimicked by a straight handle by rocking the blade up onto the belly. Doing this, I can draw the blade toward myself and present the edge to cut material directly behind it. Naturally with this angled design, the entire edge stays parallel and in contact with the base. So to use the edge, you would have to angle your wrist upward even moreso, plus the lack of belly would have you ripping through your base material with the tip.

But the only knife I've used with such an angle was for cutting bread, and I can amuse myself while laboring by practicing grip changes with any old Craftsman screwdriver. So my bias is clear.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Using the tip to cut, you would normally hold the knife like a pen, so the angle of knife to handle is not critical.

That is interesting, I have always done it such as illustrated in "The Professional Chef's Knife Kit" which shows something very similar to a sabre grip where the control is from the wrist not the fingers.

The biggest fault with small knives like paring knives is skinning your knuckles on the chopping board because a paring knife has so little depth.

Yeah for most dicing work of that type you want a dropped blade or similar but the straight utility knives are more general cutting tools rather than so focused. The western ones anyway, the japanese utility knives tend to be more like small chef's knives though.

Knuckles have never been an issue with me personally as the blade is used differently. Paring knives generally don't have the length to do a lot of slicing, but assuming I wanted to, to quickly slice up a pepper for example, I'd just draw the blade backwards on an angle above the board.

This has problems for long term use as it does strain the wrist (you would never notice it unless you did it for a living) and in those cases you would use a chef's knife where the dropped blade would allow a more neutral wrist position.

Most of the paring work I do tends to be peeling or similar where again the grip is very similar to sabre (edge orientation reversed) and an upsweep reduces the cutting ability. I also like paring knives to be very narrow, about a cm or so wide as this makes them very easy to turn in foods.

Most of the production ones I find are way too wide and are thus really awkward when turning because you are fighting a large leverage disadvantage. Usually they need the width for the taper to bring down the thickness, but you don't need this with the right hollow grind.

The paring knife in the above is much like a cleaver compared to the one I normally use which is about 0.05" thick, 0.4" wide and 3" long.

-Cliff

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Lets just say I know a guy that has hundreds of kitchen knives and cooking and knives are both a pretty serious hobby. Ok, its me.

I have over 100 kitchen knives from makers all over the world, some well known and some not. Some ridiculously expensive, some not.

I also have some of the Shun pieces and also the large Onion design knife.

The large Onion design knife can do it all in the kitchen. It is the 21st century version of a French chefs knife-although the ergonomics, construction, metallurgy and aesthetics, IMO, are far superior.

The wide, arcing blade curve makes chopping ridiculously easy. Slicing is likewise easy and very controlled due to the thin, laminated blade. Things tend to stick less to the "damascus" external layer also. The handle is more comfortable than any traditional chefs knife handle. With that being said, I have huge hands and could probably stand for another 1/2" of length if I had my druthers.

Although the blade is thin, it is wide and hefty enough for heavy chopping like poultry bones and the like. The laminated VG-10 core seems incredibly tough compared to some hand-made, carbon steel kitchen knives with similar edge geometry that I also actually own, but now rarely use.

If you would like any more information on this particular knife, let me know.
I have actually used one daily/extensively and if I were only allowed one knife in my kitchen, this would most certainly be it.

Ken-my hat is off to you for this design, as usual.:thumbup:

 

[KenOnion]

Thanks Anthony!! Glad you like it ! And thanks for the Kudos!!!

 

[barrabas74]

I have the Alton Angle Santuko, the 3 1/2 inch paring, 3 1/2 inch vegetable, 4 in Alton paring, 6 inch boning, 6 in utility, 8 in chef. My dig cam is on the fritz but I am workin on getting pics up.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

I forgot to mention that this knife has a large scalloped bolster that is inetended to be held loosely by the thumb and hand when chopping large amounts. It aids in getting the right rocking motion and also resists fatigue. It is how most pro chefs cut, although I have seen some pro TV chefs that aren't that proficient with a knife (Rachel Ray)..

 

[moki]

I really believe you should go to your local Williams Sonoma , Sur La tabe, or other gourmet shops in or arround your town and ask to roll one arround in your hand a bit befor you pass judgement. And if it still aint what your looking for don't buy it .

Ken, my wife is an avid chef, and she's constantly lamenting about the crappy kitchen knives we have. Having spent some time in Japan, I'm familiar with Kershaw knives (and the Shun line), and guess what?

The wife has a wrapped set of your beautifully designed knives under the christmas tree as we speak. I will let you know how it goes, though I suspect she will be very pleased!

 

[moki]

Christmas day came, and my wife opened her Kershaw knife set... they have already been put through their paces cooking a late lunch. Amazingly sharp knives, and my wife really liked the ergonomic handle.

It's a little early to say for sure, but these seem to be a big hit!