How good were the sword steels of old?

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Feb 23, 2000
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How good were they?

Could the Romans produce a half decent broadsword?

How good were the Norse and Viking Blades?

Was the Renaisance the height of sword development?

Can it be bettered today?

Finally, after a good battle was a sword knackered, or could they take the punishment? Rebuild it or wipe it over a stone a couple of times?
 
The Romans did get good steel from a number of sources. In Europe, there were mines in the Sana Valley in Bosnia, Carinithia in Spain and Aude in Gaul. At Norcium, within the modern province of Styria in Austria, was where the finest ore came and was mined by the Celts from at least 500 bce onwards. The Romans turned it into Government controlled mines early on. It was known for its high content of Manganese and Titanium with very little sulpur, phosphorus and arsenic inmpurities.

Reopenned during the Frankish period about 9th century, the Viking swords made during this time soon replaced the former somewhat heavier patternwelded ones. The steel used made the blades lighter and tougher. These same mines produced fine blades right through the Medieval times and armour (Innsbruck and Passau) being amongst the best in Europe. The region may not have been a "cradle" of iron working but it supplied a richer supply of high grade ore than the Eastern sources.

The Romans traded for plates and rods of steely iron from the northern regions of India where "wootz" steel was made since about 600bce.

Some Ulfberht blades were tested and found to have 0.75% and higher carbon content while some earlier pattern welded blades has 0.401% to 0.052%.

As for longevity and use in the field, it would depend on the maker/s and quality. So many blades did not survive and not because they were no good as much as reuse, wear or just plain time. There have been older patternwelded blades found with much later Katzbalger hilts. Rehilting because of fashion is a long tradition and cutting down a blade to become a shorter one or making into daggers is not uncommon as well.

And just throw away or sold to an Ironmonger for scrap. Charles Ffloukes writes in his "The Armour and his Craft" (written in early 20th Century) of going to such a place in England and finding pommels from Medieval swords being used as "weights" for some scales. He bemoaned the tragic loss of both swords and armour being just thrown away like that.

If a sword proved to stand up in battle, time and time again, you can be sure it was well taken care of and rehoned. Some years ago, a friend came back from Scotland with a 1745 period baskethilted sword. You could tell that it was once much longer but use and resharpening had made narrower and shorter. Not to mention thinner. Although a Medieval or earlier Viking blade would have been thicker, a long life would have made it look much like that Scottish one eventually.

Modern equivalants, are probably like the high carbon 1065-1075 alloy type and the 5160 alloy. The reason why my husband, Kirby uses 5160 exlusively the past 45 years because of it's properties when tempered and annealled using traditional method...making his blades tough and yet "springy" like many originals. The 5160 alloy may take abit of time to get a good edge but it keeps it a long time as well as stand alot of use.
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Note: ALL edged swordblades will get nocks and niches in them if used edge against edge. You do read of swords becoming so badly dulled/nocked in battle they look like sawblades and time is taken to get them back into shape. This is why rebated edges are made for modern Live Steel use. In some Rennasaince Schools of the Sword, the point was the most important and the rapier edges were left dulled.
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There many good modern steels that bladesmiths use to make knife and some swordblades. What will make a wonderful knife may not be suitable for a longer swordblade though. A matter of intention and what is needed to make the longer blade stand up to alot of flexing, vibration and just plain toughness. You do not want a swordblade to be hard, you do what some "give" or else it will break or snap. This is where the art of proper tempering/annealling comes in...whether from furnace or traditional methods. A fully hardened knife blade may keep a razor sharp edge and cut through a soft iron rivet. But will chip or break under pressure because the process made it brittle/too hard.

Some steels are just unsuitable because they were not developed to make blades with. Like Tool Steels for example or Stainless alloys.

Yes, there was mass production and quality ran the gamut especially when making stuff for armies. But like everything else, time and distance takes its toll and we are left with only a fraction to admire and reflect on.





[This message has been edited by Laurie Wise (edited 08-29-2000).]
 
Laurie Wise,
Sorry for so many questions. Thank you for the indepth reply.
What was the reason for Italian swords having such regard/quality for so long? Same mines, or workmanship?
 
Um, dismissing tool steels and stainless steels seems kind of rash. A particular steel I have recently taken a great interest in, CPM3V, happpens to be stainless (borderline stainless, at least). However, Crucible's powder metallurgy process allows a much higher percentage of alloying elements, so the chromium is added in addition to, not instead of, the other alloying elements. Compared to 5160, for example, it should be possible to make a sword with less steel, and still have the same level of durability. Of course, there are always drawbacks, cost being the most commonly-noted, in addition to the fairly difficult heat-treat. In addition, if one is trying to duplicate a traditional style of sword, being able to make the blade thinner and lighter than those originals would not tend to be the goal, so it is definitely not for everyone. Still, for those of us who prefer somewhat non-traditional designs, I see great promise in this steel.

--JB

P.S., I would appreciate it if certain people - you know who you are - did not turn this into a flame war. If you have something to say, say it, but keep it civil.

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
Thing is, Crucible never claimed their powder steel was tougher than simple carbon steels. Just that they were tough compared to other alloy steels.
 
GreenJacket,

Laurie pretty much answered most of your original question but I thought I would take a shot at some parts of it:

"Was the Renaisance the height of sword development?

Can it be bettered today?"

The short answers are no and yes. There are some folks who will tell you that the rennaisance was the be all and end all not just of swords but of sword fighting techniques as well. Those are the folks that are particularly partial to those over grown knitting needles the rapier. (That knitting needles crack was said tongue in cheek so save your flames) Seriously though rennaisance swords and swordsmanship were simply evolutions in response to the environment of the time. Swords were on their way out and armor was disappearing. A light stabbing blade was all that was needed in most situations (although no one carried them into battle). On the other hand drop a rapier guy into a fight with a guy wearing full plate and he would be toast.

As for the part about can it be bettered today I would certainly hope so. After all they don't call it progress for nothing. We know a lot more about metallurgy then they did way back when. We have all kinds of technological advantages in tools and materials. I am not denigrating what ancient smiths did, but I'm sure if they had access to modern material and technique they would jump at the chance to make better weapons.
 
Interesting topic, and excellent reply by Laurie Wise, although I gotta correct a bit:
Are you sure about "Carinithia" being located in Spain? I don´t know about Spanish iron sources in the Roman empire, but the Roman region of Carinthia (correct spelling), located in the Roman province of Noricum (roughly modern Austria south of the Danube and west of Vienna) is the rough equivalent of the modern Austrian province of Kaernten (the name Kaernten ethymologically comes from the Roman Carinthia; in English it is still called "Carinthia"). And in modern Kaernten (at the northern border to the modern Austrian province of Styria) were most of the mines for ferrum noricum, Noric iron located. You can still visit some of the remains of Celtic and Roman culture in Carinthia, mostly the archaelogically extremely interesting site at Magdalensberg, which used to be the major trading point for Ferrum Noricum. The Iron mines in Carinthia and Styria were operated up to the 20th century. Nowadays they are economically uninteresting and closed.
As far as I know, the Noric iron also had unusually high carbon content, making it better suited for steel production.

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"Peace is not without conflict; it is the ability to cope with conflict" - Leo Giron

[This message has been edited by judge (edited 08-30-2000).]
 
The quality of the iron ore from source was an important factor. How much then did the smithies improve on the raw material? I know Roman swords became longer as time and tactics went by. The question I'm really trying to ask is: If Cliff Stamp was able to test the blades over the various periods, what major improvements would he have seen. Did the smithies have iron/steel pretty well sorted from word go, or were there major advances, or just a gradual improvement?
 
A friend of mine, a sword collector, has a Middle Eastern sword from around the 8th to the 10th Century CE. The steel is wootz, or what is generally called Damascus and it has a blue enameled hilt and cross-guard. The blade is the traditional straight blade of the period, not terribly pointed; a slashing blade. I have seen him take the blade and flex it so that the tip of the blade touches the pommel of the hilt! Mark you, this is on a blade that the Smithsonian Institution has dated as at least 1000 years old! The blade, when released returnes to straight.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
tallwingedgoat: Um, just because Crucible didn't come out an make the claim, does not mean it is not so.

GREENJACKET: the quality of steel has imporved quite steadily. There were the occasional major advance, as well as a continuous improvement. Of course, if it was Cliff Stamp doing the testing, he would see whatever he expected to see, as has always been the case with his reviews.
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[edited since FullerH posted while I was typing]
Hugh, would it be possible to get a picture? I'm wondering how much of this is design and how much is steel. Either way, that's quite impressive, I'm just wondering how much was the steel itself, and how much was the understanding of the steel's properties by the bladesmith in making the design.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com


[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 08-31-2000).]
 
I used Cliff Stamp's name to clarify my question; not to suggest a testing method.

Domascus and pattern welding teckniques were used by the Vikings. This was most probably a method to overcome the inconsistencies of the steels and casting methods used.

 
e_utopia,


This is an arguement that's as old as the hills. (okay may be not that old)

I've no doubt some of the powder steel stuff is pretty tough. And maybe they are really as good as people say. But there are no definite answers.

Most of the folks that say CMP-3V is hell tough are usually those used to working with ATS-34 and A2. Which -- compared to simpler steels -- are not tough steels to begin with.

I've heard 3V taking a 60 degree flex and return to true. This information apparently caused a lot of excitement. But you can make a carbon steel blade that flex 120 degrees. nobody gets excited about this because carbon steel is not sexy, not new to them. And besides flexibility only tells a part of the story.

The claim to fame of CPM's toughness is that it has very refined grain. Well you can make the grain just as small or even smaller on carbon steel if your heat treat is very good and don't take any short cuts. There are powder carbon steels, but a mastersmith probably have no use for it because he can manipulate the grain size himself.

Also the steel with the smallest grain size does not make it the toughest. 52100 for example has grain size so small it's off the charts. But it's probably too high carbon for a 3 foot long blade.

The Navy uses HY-100 for submarine hulls. So named because this steel can withstand 100,000 lbs of pressure per square inch. This has nothing to do with grain size. This is not a powder steel either, and powder steel has been around before CPM started making them.

I'm not a metallurgist and don't claim to be an expert. But I think the toughness claim of powder steels get too much attention simply because it's new. I think its exciting that a steel can be an extremly good edgeholder and be fairly tough at the same time. But edgeholding is not that big of a concern for swords.

Can 3V be tough? Undoubtably, people have made reasonalby tough swords out of A2 and 440C. But there are simply better materials available for swords.



[This message has been edited by tallwingedgoat (edited 08-31-2000).]
 
People care far too much about what a blade is made of, and not how it is made or the thermal treatments that bring out the properties in the steel that make it most desirable.

Material selection just simply isn't all that important compared to everything else coming together to create the whole sword.

Shinryû.
 
Um, tallwingedgoat, I guess I should clarify that I have no interest in foils, so I want a blade which will remain pretty close to straight. The blade better not be bending even 30 degrees, let alone 60 or 120. The big thing about CPM is that the steel can take huge impacts without damage, while still having a high enough hardness to take a sharp edge. 5160 in it's 'truck spring' state will take more impact force, but will not take an edge.

And what's with HY-100? Swords take impacts, not steady pressure.

The edgeholding is not hte biggest thing to look for with something like 3V. The important thing is that a thinner blade of 3V will withstand the same impacts as a thicker blade of 5160, for example. Thinner blades cut better...

Robert, I fully agree. If the maker does not know the material in question, there is no way the sword will compare to one made with something s/he does know. However, it does make sense to be able to choose between materials that a given maker does know. You also need to look at the design, the workmanship, the heat treat (goes hand-in-hand with the design), and the willingness of the maker to stand by his/her work.

I do have a question about "how it is made": are you referring to whether it is forged or made by stock-removal?

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com
 
By "how it is made," I'm not referring to forge versus stock removal. I'm one of the people who doesn't see any serious inherent performance contrasts between the two, but I like forging because it usually conserves a lil more material.

I generally meant design, shaping, cross section, that sort of thing. Then again, there's a lot of people around that don't care about those factors either. Ahh well, such is life.

Shinryû.
 
e_utopia,
5160 in it's 'truck spring' state will take more impact force, but will not take an edge
You might want to drop by the HI and GH Forums and throw that line out, if you're into serious trolling. Be prepared for some pointers on shaving with large blades, however.
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Berk
 
Ahh, good, I was getting worried. You sounded like you knew your stuff, so I figured it would a be good thing to ask. I've never met anyone who could tell the difference between a forged blade and a stock-removal blade, and since there is no practical reason why there would be a difference, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the two are identical after heat-treat. Forging definitely saves on the material cost, though (less grinder dust on the floor).

Personally, I find one of the most important parts of a sword to be the shape of the cross-section; the cutting performance can vary quite drastically in response to different cross-sections.

[Berkly posted while I was typing]
What I meant was, at spring temper (without the heat-treat which is applied to the blade), you would have an excellent blade for theater use, but there would not be much of an edge. Once it is heat-treated properly, some of the springiness is lost in favor of better edge abilities.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by e_utopia (edited 08-31-2000).]
 
It is out of context to mention the Japanese Katana in this discussion? I don’t know much about European swords, so I can’t comment on them. It seems to me that the lamination and differential heat treating techniques of the Katana yielded an incredible amount of performance from the simple carbon steels of the day. I’ve always been impressed by the pragmatic attention to detail that went in to the design of these blades. For example; aside from a stylistic demarcation between the hardened cutting edge and the softer
body of the blade, the pattern of the hamon allows regularly spaced “legs” (ashi) of martinsitic structure to project at right angles into the hardened cutting edge. These partitions kept an edge chip from spreading. I’ve seen several blades that have been used in battle, and the occasional edge chip often appears successfully localized because of this technique. Do European swords have anything analogous?
 
Hey Rick...
well aside from the lamination thing, which was more a result of conserving resources (no need to discuss that at length), they did manage to get some wonderful characteristics in many Japanese swords. Of course not all were great, but throughout history we've come to understand that in just about all areas of craftsmanship, there will be the metaphorical "lemons."

I too focus my studies on Japanese-style blades so I cannot answer your question thoroughly. Sorry.

But one teeeeeeeeeeeeency point of correction...when you were referring to ashi, you meant pearlite correct? Just martensite was a slip of the fingers I guess. Happens to us all.

Shinryû.
 
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