How hot does propane burn in a reducing atmosphere?

weo

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Hello all. I had some more time (and the weather was cooperative) to play with my forge and PID settings yesterday and decided to try welding up a san-mai billet (15N20/1080/15N20) using the new forging press instead of hand hammer.

I fired up the forge and finished forging another integral blade with forge temp set to 1850 F. I then set the PID to 1950 F for the weld, and when the forge reached this temp, I switched my forge to my 'ON' setting which will keep my high flow line open all the time. I also closed the damper on my air flow enough to create a reducing atmosphere for the forge welding. I put the cold, un-welded billet in the forge and the thermocouple temp dropped to about 1830 F. When the billet reached the same color as the interior of the forge, the thermocouple was showing 1880F. I let the billet soak for about 5-10 minutes to see if the temp would get back up to 1950, but the temp never read over 1885 F.

Is this normal with a reducing atmosphere?

Thanks
 
Is 1950F hot enough for welding carbon steel you've got? I was thinking it was more like 2100F or a tad more for carbon steel. For SS cladding I've been using around 2200F for welding San Mai.

When you got forge to 1950F you had the blower damper open to provide more air? It seems if the gas was left the same setting, and air flow reduced the temperature would drop some? When you say "reducing atmosphere" do you have dragon's breath coming out front of forge?

The rear of forge is closed (mostly anyway) and do you have any of the front opening closed off? When forge welding I'll put a couple of fire brick across rear opening and a single fire brick at front to about half close front to help hold heat inside forge.

I'm just tossing out ideas since Stacy nor any of the others who actually have knowledge and experience have chimed in yet. I'm sure they will, a really GREAT helpful bunch of folks here.

Ken H>
 
When you say "reducing atmosphere" do you have dragon's breath coming out front of forge?
Yes, that's what I look for. Another variable is that when I had my own shop, it was dark enough to make this obvious. Where I live now, I have to move my forge out of the garage and yesterday it was a bright sunny day, so I guess it probably had even more of a dragon's breath than my old shop because it was harder to see.

The rear of forge is closed (mostly anyway) and do you have any of the front opening closed off?
Yes, for my 'doors' I use fire bricks stacked up to block off the openings and allow me to customize the size of the opening to each piece I'm heating up. Yesterday, I welded a piece of 1 1/2" x 1/4" flat stock for the handle, and the billet I was welding was roughly 3/4" x 1 1/2" so the opening was usually 3/4" by 4" tall, and when I had the billet laying flat, the opening was 1 1/2" wide, but I then put a brick on top of the handle to close it up as much as possible.

Is 1950F hot enough for welding carbon steel you've got?
It's my understanding that if the surfaces are close enough and clean enough, the temp is not a factor. I've got a new 25-ton press with big flat dies that I used to set the weld. I did pre-heat the dies by heating a piece of 3/8" flat stock to red and closing the dies on it while the billet was heating the first 2 heats. I'm trying to see if I can lower the temps during my forge-welding to minimize grain growth, because in my research, the recommended forging temp for 15N20 is 1800-1950F. Might not be the best idea, but I'm in an experimental phase these days....
 
The adiabatic flame temperature for a stoichiometric Propane/Air flame is usually given as 1980 degC, 3596 degF.

We do not see this temperature in forges for a number of reasons.

First is that we cannot achieve perfect insulation and there will be some heat losses.

Second is that we usually need to run a reducing atmosphere in order to limit scaling and decarburization. We therefore add extra fuel.

At the stoichiometric ratio, the flame temperature is high enough to cause some Oxygen to react with Nitrogen and produce highly reactive Oxides of Nitrogen. There is also unreacted Oxygen present which has not had time to combine with the fuel. The Oxygen and Oxides of Nitrogen readily react with the workpiece at these high temperatures and will quickly ruin it.

We can reduce the flame temperature either by adding extra air or by adding extra fuel. Most processes are only really concerned with heat release and temperature and will run lean (with an excess of air). Air is free and fuel is expensive, so it makes sense. By completely Oxidizing the fuel, all the available energy is released and a minimum of poisonous Carbon Monoxide is produced. By adding enough extra air to get the flame temperature down to around 1000 degC, 1832 degF, very little Oxides of Nitrogen are produced.

For forging, running with excess air would mean that there is a lot of unburned Oxygen at the workpiece. This is extremely undesirable (scale, decarb) and is the reason we run rich (excess fuel).

We can vary the amount of excess fuel we add. Adding more excess fuel reduces the flame temperature and makes the forge atmosphere more reducing. We generally want to use the most reducing atmosphere we can (for minimal Oxidation), consistent with reaching the desired temperature in a reasonable time.

I use Amal atmospheric injectors on my burner: British-made commercial Venturi mixers with a very finely-adjustable choke. This gives very fine progressive control over the fuel/air mixture. I use the version factory-jetted for Butane, even though I run on Propane, because the Butane jet is slightly smaller and will reach a higher temperature than the factory Propane jet when the choke is fully open. A number of British smiths I know have taken to using them because they provide all the adjustability of a well-put-together blown burner with the freedom-from-electricity of a Naturally-Aspirated burner.

The highest forge temperature I have measured (using a Platinum-based Type S thermocouple) is 1554 degC, 2829 degF, with the indicated temperature still rising. I am sure it would have gone higher, but I was reluctant to risk the expensive thermocouple and it was already above the melting point of Iron. There was still visible Dragons Breath, so I am confident the forge was still running rich at the time.

By simply choking down the air supply, I could run the same forge/burner combination at any desired temperature down to around 760 degC, 1400 degF. At this, much lower, temperature Carbon (soot) was being deposited on the workpiece. Huge amounts of poisonous Carbon Monoxide were being produced and there was no visible Dragons Breath. I surmise this was because once the partially-burned gases mixed with air outside the forge mouth, the temperature was too low to sustain combustion.

In essence, you can run at any temperature you might reasonably want to run with a reducing flame, if you have good adjustment. It is "just" a case of balancing the temperature needed against the reducing-ness needed and finding the best compromise.

It sounds like your air:fuel ratio in PID mode was enough for the flame temperature to exceed 1950 degF and to hold that temperature by cycling the hi-burn. You then adjusted the air:fuel ratio to give a reducing flame at "about" 1885 degC.

Are you running a blown burner or Naturally-Aspirated?
 
It sounds like your air:fuel ratio in PID mode was enough for the flame temperature to exceed 1950 degF and to hold that temperature by cycling the hi-burn. You then adjusted the air:fuel ratio to give a reducing flame at "about" 1885 degC.

Thanks, timgunn! Great answer, and completely answers my question. Yep, that sounds like what happened. Looks like I'm going to need to do a bit of experimentation.

Are you running a blown burner or Naturally-Aspirated?
I've got a blown burner (what I've always called a ribbon burner).
 
Tim, Thanks for a detailed answer. It answered some of my questions also. Not sure how hot my forge would get, but I've touched 2300F (and a tad more before getting it cooled down to protect the type K thermocouple. In my old forge I saw a tad over 2400F, and destroyed the ceramic sheath so now I'm pretty careful. I use a #8 AWG type K TC inside the ceramic sheath.

Billy, thank you for the nice words you typed while I was writing this post, but I do know my limitations in knowledge and experience, and forges is one place I'm still learning.... well, everywhere also. I plan to keep learning until the day I'm no longer above ground, hopefully MANY years in future! :)
 
There will be an optimum door opening, too big and it won’t get hot and too small and it won’t get hot. The size of the forge and burner and the gas pressure will affect things. With a readout, just find the optimum opening.

Hoss
 
The answers have all been givern:
Right amount of air and gas.
Right size ports.

I will add that dragon's breath is a sign of excess fuel supply. When running wide open it is pretty much unavoidable. It is not a sign of reducing or oxidizing atmosphere. The color of the flame tells you that. A perfectly balanced forge has just a little dragon's breath and the color is slightly tinged with yellow at the ends of the fairly clear flame. To get the feel of what the flame should look like vary the gas and air and watch what happens as you do. More gas .. yellower flame, more air, bluer flame, less air … yellower, less gas ... bluer. By balancing the air/gas you should be able to run a blown burner at any temperature from around 1400°F to 2300°F.

FWIW, I weld at around 2100°F to 2200°F.
 
Dragon's breath is a sign that all the fuel gas isn't being consumed inside the forge chamber and it is burning as it exits the ports. It can be any type of flame depending on the amount of gas and air in it.

You can have a huge dragons breath and a very oxidizing flame by running the blower at full blast and backing off the gas a bit. As long as there is more air available than the gas needs, the flame will be oxidizing. The flame will be blue.

You can have a very reducing dragons breath by turning the gas high and turning the air down or off. The flame will be yellow.

You can have a small reducing flame and no dragons breath at all by reducing the gas supply and turning the air flow down until the flames inside the forge are just slightly yellow.

All this is why you want a burner that is sized to fit your forge. Putting a 1.5" blown burner on a 12" forge with a 3" chamber will look like a jet taking off no matter what you set the air/gas at.
Another issue with people building forges who aren't familiar with burners is blocking off the ports nearly completely to make it get hotter. This works up to a point where you start choking the forge in its own exhaust gasses. You need enough exhaust exit area to accommodate the volume of hot gasses exiting the forge. The higher you turn up the flame, the more exhaust gasses you create. As in everything in life, BALANCE is the key word. I often "tune" my burner by ear. You can hear when it is running right.
 
There is an awful lot of Chemistry (and Physics) going on in a forge. Very few of us have any more than a rudimentary grasp of it all.

When gases get hot, they expand. This means that the volume of hot gases leaving the forge is much greater than the volume of cool gases (fuel and air) going in. A pretty good rule of thumb seems to be that the area of the forge opening needs to be at least 7 times the burner area. This is just a rule of thumb. I tend to aim for at least 10 to 1 with NA burners.

My small forges (4” diameter x 10” chamber) have a single 1/2” burner and 2” diameter ports front and rear. The rear gets closed off when it is not needed for long stuff, giving a 16:1 exhaust to burner area ratio which will be reduced when the workpiece goes in.

My larger, IFB, forges (6” square x 13.5” chamber) have 3” square ports front and rear. Again the rear port gets closed off when not needed to give an 11.5:1 exhaust to burner area ratio, which will also be reduced when the workpiece goes in.

The pressure available to drive gas in (typically Pounds per square inch) is usually very much higher than the pressure available to drive the air in (typically Ounces per square inch). Any restriction to the exhaust port will have very little, if any, effect on the amount of gas, but will have a much greater effect on the amount of air. This means that restricting the forge opening beyond a certain point will cause the mixture to richen and the flame temperature to reduce.

There can be a temptation to think that if a bit is good, more must be better. It ain’t necessarily so.
 
Stacy and Tim have provided some GREAT info on forge and temperature control. BTW Billy, I really like your idea of pre-heating the flat dies in your press. I really envy ya'll with power hammers and presses. Remember, I use the "Baking Soda" (Arm and Hammer) powder hammer :) Billy mentioned welding temps.
It's my understanding that if the surfaces are close enough and clean enough, the temp is not a factor. (for welding)
Hoss, Stacy, Tim, and others: would ya'll comment on the above statement please? I always thought welding temp was a tad hotter than forging temps.
.... (snip) FWIW, I weld at around 2100°F to 2200°F.
Stacy commented on his welding temp, but I'm not sure if that's for high carbon, San Mai with SS cladding, etc. It is my understanding that low carbon requires a higher temp for welding than does high carbon steel. That was why SS (410, 416, 304, etc) and wrought iron clad San Mai required 2200 to 2300F for welding while high carbon steels used for Damascus would weld at 2100F to 2200F temps.
 
I was quoting what I weld high carbon billets at.

Surfaces need to be clean of debris, oil and light rust actually aren't a problem. Soaking the pieces of a billet to be welded in any hydrocarbon (Brake cleaner, kerosene, fuel oil, etc.) is a very good idea. This keeps them clean and ready to weld up. Immediately after tack welding a billet up and welding the handle on, put it back in the bucket ( allowing time to cool a bit, obviously). You can store the billets in the bucket of kerosene for days or months and it is ready to weld by merely taking it out and letting the excess drip back in the bucket. The billet will flame up as you put it in the forge to bring up to welding temperature. It will coat all surfaces with carbon, including between the layers, which will make the weld work better (the excess carbon makes a greatly reducing atmosphere between the pieces of metal, and it raises the carbon content at the junction).

If you don't let the billet cool below 1600°F from the start to finish of the weld, you need no flux/borax at all. Work the billet and when it cools to a cherry red, put it immediately back in the forge. Brush off with a wire brush as you pull the hot billet out and repeat the welding until the weld is solid and you don't see any dark lines where the layers were inthe start. It will look and sound like a solid bar of steel ... which it is once properly welded.

Here is the physics of welding:
A weld is a fusion of two surfaces.
They can be melted together, as in arc/tig welding, or fused by diffusion by placing the surfaces close together and applying heat and pressure.
Technically, you could weld at room temperature with enough pressure. This is how explosion welding works (google it for some great videos).

Welding in bladesmithing takes heat to get the atoms moving around fast enough to cross the surface from one bar of steel to the other. These are "energized" atoms, moving much faster than at room temperature. This requires around 2100°F to 2200°F for most high carbon steel.
If you just stick the billet in the forge at 2200°F and leave it, it won't weld. That is because the actual welding temperature is right at the melting point of the steel - near 2600°F. The extra temperature in the weld comes in the form of pressure. The higher the carbon content, the lower the welding temperature. Wrought iron ( almost no carbon) welds at 2300-2400°F. Hitachi-white steel (around 1.35% carbon) welds easily at 2100°F.

Heat is energy. Pressure is energy. Adding them together in a billet of steel will raise the temperature at the surfaces sufficiently to fuse the surfaces. If you watch a billet under the press you will notice it brightens considerably as the temperature jumps up when the billet is pressued. Same for hammer welding and forging, the place struck by the hammer is brighter/hotter than the surrounding area. The reason you "set" the welds gently is that too much pressure will cause melting along the grain boundaries as well as the surfaces, and the steel will "mush" apart. Once the weld is set, use higher pressure to make the weld solid and completely fused. Normally you do the first welds around 2100-2200°F, and then drop the heats done to consolidate the billet about 100°F. Once solid, you drop to the forging temperatures to work the bilet. Those are usually between 1700° and 1900°F. Don't try and do any reduction or other work below 1600°F or it can crack the billet.
 
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Thanks for the detailed explanations everyone.

As in everything in life, BALANCE is the key word. I often "tune" my burner by ear. You can hear when it is running right.
This is something I've done in the past, and I do notice that it doesn't sound like what I remember from my old place.

As I was cleaning up the billet I did, I think I'm seeing incomplete welds at spots, which bums me out because this will be only the 3rd failed forge weld since I started doing damascus a number of years ago :(:mad::rolleyes:...But I have heard that one learns more through failure than success, so that's a good thing, right?

I think I have a bit more experimenting to do in order to get back into "the swing of things" like I was before I had to sell my place last April and move here to Portland. I've got a lot of new variables to deal with at my current set-up: different propane delivery set-up (PID, thermocouple, 2 needle valves opposed to one to get tuned); new lighting as the forge is now outside in the sunlight opposed to inside a relatively dark shop; and I tried the new forging press opposed to setting the weld by hand...
Again, thanks for all the replies, hopefully I can apply...
 
A pretty good rule of thumb seems to be that the area of the forge opening needs to be at least 7 times the burner area.
Am I correct in reading that you're talking about the total area of the holes, not the burner itself?
If so, my burner has 23 holes 3/16" dia, (Area = 3.1415 * r *r = .0276)
Total burner area = 0.635
So my forge opening area should be at least around 4.445 sq in +/-
Did I do the math right?
 
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Stacy, Thank you for such a detailed write up. Helps confirm what I "thought" I knew.

Billy, I know exactly what you mean about trying to see the color of the dragon's breath in sunlight. My forge is outside and it's really hard to see. I've waited until late in day so it's darker to better see the dragon's breath when learning to tune my forge. Then, during bright sun I can put settings about the same and it seems to work pretty good.
 
If you work outside, get a cheap HF 10X10 pop-up tent. Goes up in less than a minute. The shade will help in reading the steel and it keeps the sun/rain off you.

My smithy was under a 10X20 Costco tent for many years. I put the sides on in the winter and during bad weather. The new ones have doors, windows, and roll up ends with zippers.
 
If you work outside, get a cheap HF 10X10 pop-up tent.
That's the plan, but still waiting for the owner of the place to decide what she wants to do. And due to the electronics involved with my forge, we're going to need some sort of shelter anyway if we want to do any forging when it's raining which can happen occasionally here in Portland :rolleyes:)
 
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