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HT and tempering

Discussion in 'Axe, Tomahawk, & Hatchet Forum' started by Redneckmetalman01, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Redneckmetalman01

    Redneckmetalman01

    2
    Aug 14, 2019
    Ok guys, I'm new to all this and am trying my hand at making a full tang viking style hatchet. I did not forge anything I just cut out a blank out of 01 precision ground toolsteel ( I had some laying around ). How would I go about tempering it? Do I just do the bit end? Do I do the tang also? Any kind of advice,comments,concerns.....need some advice on this. I'm just a toolmaker trying his hand at a new hobby. Thanks
     
    Miller '72, Fmont and Yankee Josh like this.
  2. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    The very first step is to look up the Data-sheet for O1.

    Unfortunately there you'll see that this alloy is a poor choice for beginning in HT.
    It requires holding the T at which you'll be quenching for around 30 minutes,something that is best done with an HT oven.
    (i presume that you don't own one).

    However any of that may be your best(only)friend is the data-sheet pertaining to the alloy at hand;also practice gazing at and understanding TTT diagram(Time/Temperature/Transformation).

    Both of these things are easily found on internet.

    QUOTE="Redneckmetalman01, post: 19199644, member: 522766"]Do I just do the bit end? Do I do the tang also?[/QUOTE]

    Tang is left annealed or annealed after/if hardened.
     
  3. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    I understand that "style" is something that is kinda in the eye of the beholder but still,"full tang" sounds more like TrueValue Hardware Style,or Hollywood style:)

    Here're some basic viking-age styles:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_art,and tool-wise i don't personally remember any full-tang anything...but i may've missed something...

    And not that it really matters anyway...Great that you're trying your hand at hatchet making,best of luck with it,you're Guaranteed to learn lots and hopefully have a blast doing it!:)
     
    Miller '72, Yankee Josh and Fmont like this.
  4. Redneckmetalman01

    Redneckmetalman01

    2
    Aug 14, 2019
    Haha I wondered when someone would give me grief about the "full tang" aspect. I know it's not traditional at all but the 01 I had was only 5/8" thick and I'm not ready to dabble in making the keyhole yet. I'm just going to be using this as a camp/carving hatchet. As far as the HT aspect...I do have a HT oven I can use at my shop. I may just flame harden and quench with oil just on the bit. If it's too hard I can always draw it back and start over. Do you think it will be adequate? I'm also thinking of covering the tang completely with a sandwich style wood handle just to try and make it look more appealing to the eye. I had my owe doubts about the full tang aspect last night. Thanks for your input and any future input I extremely appreciate it.
     
  5. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    NO.
    :)

    Look,man,it's like this:It's a highly-engineered alloy tool-steel,and This is how you HT it:

    Google something like this-
    https://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/O1.asp
    and it'll tell you something like This:
    Heat Treatment [​IMG] Slowly preheat to 1200 F and then gradually raise temperature to 1450 - 1500 F and keep at temperature for 10 to 30 minutes. Quench in oil.

    Anything else is a form of backyard yahooism,and good Lord knows we've all done plenty of it,but what is there to discuss?!
    It may be plenty "adequate"(?...for what though exactly?),or a chunk may fly out of the edge in use and go right in your dog's ear...Or Any effect known to man and then some!:)

    Backyard experiments is another matter entirely,why'd you want to waste a good chunk of O1(+ all your time and labor) to learn basically nothing new?
    There's plenty of leaf-spring and other junkyard steel all over the place for that...
    But trust me this,loosing stuff in HT or wasting energy and time coming up with unpredictable/unusable stuff gets old right quick...
     
  6. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    P.S.

    Here's a link to some quick notes by Kevin Cashen:http://www.cashenblades.com/steel/o1.html
    He's an absolutely greatest guy to read on understanding of steel and all related processes.

    There's a TTT diagram there for O1.
    Quick&dirty like,on it you'll see a curve(further one on left),it resembles a breast:)
    Start on that Temperature scale at left,at number of degrees indicated by your specs(1475 F or whatever),
    Now draw a line Down,that Misses the tip of the nipple on that breast.
    It'll end up hitting that bottom graph that is in Seconds.That will tell you how long you have to cool that steel from Critical to cool enough.Note that towards the bottom your line will be passing through few dotted lines marked with % numbers.Those indicate % of Martensite(hard stuff that you want to form)that you'll be likely to end up with.

    Not exactly "simple",but ain't no rocket science either,just a bit of attention and you could make some neat stuff...
     
  7. Ernest DuBois

    Ernest DuBois

    Mar 2, 2013
    This is a great flurry of postings Pogrebinsky, I do enjoy the read.
     
  8. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    :)
    I'm practicing the curmugeon-ness,venting my frustration for being kept out of the forge...
    fish that i'm waiting for are late,and i've time to read a few posts,but no means of Doing anything about it...other than setting up as some kind of Ht-nazi:(
     
  9. Old Axeman

    Old Axeman Gold Member Gold Member

    784
    Jan 10, 2015
    Curmudgeon-ness is OK behavior at a certain stage of life. I now revel in it.
     
  10. Yankee Josh

    Yankee Josh Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 31, 2018
    Have your fish showed up Jake?
    Here in the north east the lobsters were very late shedding this year. REALLY late. And it's odd because it had nothing to do with water temp as it was above 54° for two weeks before they started shedding. Odd! But they've been slamming them for a week + now. Here fishy fishy fishy...
     
  11. Fmont

    Fmont Gold Member Gold Member

    818
    Apr 20, 2017
    YJ now I want a lobster roll. Like, really badly.
     
    ithinkverydeeply and Yankee Josh like this.
  12. Yankee Josh

    Yankee Josh Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 31, 2018
    I won't tell you how often I eat them... :p. Lol. I have several family members who are lobstermen and my gf's father owns a crab shop where they pick and sell (and package and mail) fresh crab meat. I'm spoiled... I actually prefer crab rolls to lobster rolls personally. I used to stern on a lobster boat. Almost 5 years on the water and I ate lobster so much then I'm still a little sick of it now! Hahaha.
     
  13. Fmont

    Fmont Gold Member Gold Member

    818
    Apr 20, 2017
    I much prefer crab myself. When I lived in New Orleans I was a tiny bit spoiled for seafood, but nothing like what you must experience. My parents have a house in S. Carolina, on the rare occasion I go down there during the season catching blue crab is always at the top of my list of things to do.

    Now I live in the middle of Michigan. I set traps for crawfish, and as good as they are they are poor substitute for coastal fishes (imo). There aren't many freshwater fish that I'm fond of, unfortunately.
     
    Yankee Josh likes this.
  14. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Yes,Josh,cautiously,but i'd say they're beginning now.I'm moderately busy,hoping to become more so.
    It's curious but i can echo what you say about lobsters-all runs of fish here are Way late,but very ample once they show up...
    I'm totally happy for you guys there,right on!Hope you have a killer season.

    Fmont,good for you,that is a healthy instinct speaking in you!:)
    Please go out and support your local(and not so local:)) wild-stocks fishermen!
    (And don't eat farmed fish,known today as the most toxic food on Earth!:)
     
  15. Yankee Josh

    Yankee Josh Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 31, 2018
    Speaking of farmed seafood... I've got a little story! When I first started living on the island(1996) I had to work my way up the ranks and build a reputation before anyone would hire me as a stern man. So I worked at a lobster buying station. The company I worked for also owned 2 large lobster pounds. For those that don't know it's basically a small cove that has a wall with a gate in it that cuts it off from the ocean to hold the lobsters in till the price goes up in the fall. One held 100,000 lbs of regular(1-1/4lb -2lb) and the other held 70,000lbs of select(big ones). Myself and another guy used to go out in a 22' outboard every other day and dump in salted, shriveled herring. 22 in one and 30 scale baskets worth in the other. 11 and 15 bushell respectively. Anyway they were all supposed to be banded but inevitably some would break. The losses were unimaginable... one pissed off 5lb lobster with its crusher claw free kills all day long. For months! Anyway while the tide washes some of the crap out a lot of the festering, putrid, rotten fish and decaying lobster carcasses remain settled on the bottom. Also they are pretty immobile and can't clean themselves off and they grow grass on the shells. And the ones that keep their bands on eat the others feelers (antennae) for a snack.
    The point of all of that is to say pound lobsters are gross! They are sick, sickly, malnourished, lethargic and filthy. Even for a bottom feeder! Some of their shells would start to look jaundice and get spots. About half I would consider totally inedible. I don't know who used to buy em but I wouldn't want to eat any! So no pound lobsters either folks!
    And don't tell me it's not relevant! You have to "heat treat" a lobster before you eat it! ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  16. Fmont

    Fmont Gold Member Gold Member

    818
    Apr 20, 2017
    Jesus that's a whole nother line of inquiry that I just have so many questions about lol I'm aware of similar operations and open ocean pens for salmon, abominations. I hadn't ever heard about lobster pounds!

    That's fantastic knowledge that I did not have before, but you can bet your ass I will pull that out next time a lady wants a lobster dinner :D
     
    A17, jake pogg and Yankee Josh like this.
  17. Meek1

    Meek1

    163
    Aug 11, 2019
    All I can think of is the poor guy that started this thread. He just had a couple questions. Now he will never eat lobster again.
     
    Keith Nix, A17, Square_peg and 2 others like this.
  18. jake pogg

    jake pogg

    Dec 20, 2015
    Well,it's his own fault!:)...Were we still in 11th century he could consult the manuscript of that monk Theophilus and learn that the `way to HT that O1`is to use the urine of a red-haired boy,or even better of a pure white goat fed exclusively on nettles(i think...forget now..).
    But he's out of luck,more than a thousand years have passed,and now we just HT according to recommendations of the manufacturer of that specific alloy...(how boring...:(

    As far as penned lobsters go...(that's a graphic description,Josh,thanks,i never knew...)...
    Long time ago,before their culture and knowledge were destroyed by missionaries the people i live among believed that one Never bring an animal into thew household,in any shape or form.
    There`was a strict taboo,and injunction on pets,and any and all animal in the home or anywhere near.
    Justification of it was that after the Fall(these people were falsely filed as "heathen" by ignorant missionaries whereas in actuality theirs was a monotheistic religion that shared many a peculiar detail with Christianity)we no longer speak the same language with the beasts and the birds,and not knowing right from wrong can do something to offend et c.

    I take this in a poetic sense,but see a lot of confirmation of soundness of this logic.When fishing or hunting we fully expect the critter we harvest to be pretty near perfect in all respect.And with very rare exception it is,any fish or bird or animal,healthy vital and clean,every feather in place,bright-eyed/bushy tailed...
    And just about every human-raised beastie...awful looking chickens,scarily demeaned cattle and pigs,if not outright physically awful in some way then genetically impaired,non-viable,helpless...:(...
    In UK where my sweetheart lives vegetarianism and veganism are on the steep rise,not from any dietary/nutritional standpoint,but from sheer distaste for how animals are `treated and how frankly Gross and depressing the results are...(she's gotten an e-mail from her electric company not long ago stating them to be the first utility in England to be fully vegan!:)...(whatever that may mean in terms of an electricity provider:)
     
    Square_peg, Meek1, Fmont and 3 others like this.
  19. Fmont

    Fmont Gold Member Gold Member

    818
    Apr 20, 2017
    W"it's his own fault!:)...Were we still in 11th century he could consult the manuscript of that monk Theophilus and learn that the `way to HT that O1`is to use the urine of a red-haired boy,or even better of a pure white goat fed exclusively on nettles(i think...forget now..).
    But he's out of luck,more than a thousand years have passed,and now we just HT according to recommendations of the manufacturer of that specific alloy...(how boring...:("



    That had me laughing good! Lol
     
    Meek1 likes this.
  20. Meek1

    Meek1

    163
    Aug 11, 2019
    I just finished writing a letter to my electric company inquiring if they were vegan as well. I also requested confirmation that no lobsters were harmed while providing my electricity. I think that should about cover it. Thank you for the heads up! All kidding aside, you made some very solid points in there. Made me stop and think as well as made me laugh.
     
    Fmont likes this.

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