I am so confused - Brands Selling Out???

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pinetree

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Jun 24, 2005
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Thumbing through the latest SMKW catalog, I came across what I thought were the "new" Puma's made by Hen and Rooster. The same knives with puma are sold by Cheaper than Dirt... I can't keep the brands straight and don't trust any of them. Marbles Knives - for all intense purposes aren't they dead, a hollow shell of the wonderful knives of the past.

I always had the impretion that I could count on quality and value from names such as Puma, Kissing Cranes, Hen and Rooster, Eye Brand and Booker. Are they all selling out?

To add to the confusion they were selling a lot of Schrade knives. Isn't Schrade gone, where are all these knives in SMKW coming from? Of course most are unlike anything I've every seen from Schrade.

All I want is a classic folder with bone handles with carbon blades. I opted for the Booker Canyon Barlow at Knife Center, of course it isn't listed in Booker's catalog, so who knows where it was made, by who for whom.

Can I trust any merchant or brand?

Also, on websites and catalogs, I want to see where it is made and what it is made of - particular the blade.

Thanks, sorry for the rant,
tjg
 
There is a lot of change going on in the knife industry. The only thing you can do to protect yourself from junk knives (or any other goods) is to be an informed consumer. I won't buy ANY Chinese or other foreign made knives, because it affects my fellow North American workers (I am an American citizen, currently living in Canada). Besides, the vast majorty of it is junk.
When a company tries to capitalize on an old brand, almost 100% of the time it's a scam; shoddy though "shiny" goods purported to represent the great name of the past.
Bull dung, I say! Find a nice quality old knife from the 20's through the 60's or so. Use it with pleasure. But first look at a lot of knives, and talk to a lot of people.
There are some new knives that are good, but I've found that unless you have a very trustworthy dealer, it's better to handle it yourself before you buy. Queen's knives, especially their Schatt&Morgan line are good. You can get a knife with superior steel, ATS-34 or D2 without breaking the bank. Case's CV knives make great users, although I've had to send 2 back to be corrected; at least there is a warranty. Don't let someone (even me) tell you what to do!! Get a lot of opinions, then make up your own mind!! But don't be afraid to spend a little extra for quality. It's an old saying, but it still stands; Good quality lasts a lot longer than the few bucks you save by buying inferior goods!!
Sorry for this rant too!
But I get disgusted with people comparing the relative merits of cheap offshore knives. Bury them all in a swamp, I say!!!!!!!!! Why support countries that enslave and abuse their citizens. Why support charlatans who fob off a parody of a well made American knife!!!!
The Emperor definitely is standing there in his skivvies!!!!
 
What they are doing is moving some production to other countries. As an example, the Boker knives that are made in Asia are called Magnum or Boker Plus. Boker also makes knives in Argentina. Hen and Rooster is now moving some production to Spain. Yes, Schrade went belly up and the Schrade name was purchased by Taylor Cutlery - the Smith & Wesson knife folks. Marbles is still there making good quality fixed blade knives. Their folders, of course, are Chinese imports. They tried to sell Queen made knives a few years ago but it didn't work. The Chinese folders seem to be selling OK for them.

It is not hard to find good quality traditional folders made in the U.S., Japan and Europe but you need to know what you are looking at. For the most part, you can be guided by price. You can't buy a U.S. or European made folder for $15.

To add to Waynorth's post some person at some time said "The memory of the price paid for a high quality item wears off long before the item needs to be replaced" or something to that effect.
 
It would be a great asset to have a website or publisher that posted the major knife brands and their path from original owner and country of production to who owns them now and where they are produced. That would help a bunch.
Greg
 
It isn't just knives either. I was in finally buying a new pair of western boots today. I went over to look at belts and all the Tony Lama, Justin, and other branded belts were not only expensive $40 on sale on up to $70, but turn them over and they all said "Made in China" or just stamped, "China." I wasn't looking for dance hall gear, and I finally found a basic tooled belt for $24 that low and behold says, "Made in U.S.A. by LEEGIN." I bought it!

I checked Tony Lama boots I was getting one more time to make sure they were still Made in USA. Thankfully, they were.

While at the store I checked out the oil skin dusters, Austraila Outback brand. Now my old swagman (kind of a thigh length oilskin.) I got years ago is the same brand and was made in Australia and I know what it cost. So I was surprised that these full lengths were going for about $35 less than I paid in the PX years 14 yrs ago or so. Then I saw the label. Made in China. There's just something disturbing about brand label western gear being made in China.

Another label that now confuses me is Remington. I like the Camillus produced Remington stuff, particulary early 90's and before. The later stuff sometimes is a bit soft sprung. Then Remington quit using Camillus, changed tang stamps (and locations) to the Madison, NC stamps, and now their knives are made in China, though I have heard that some are made by a US maker, but I need a scorecard to know which is what. So, I just don't buy any Remington with the new tang stamp and stick to ones with stamps and boxes I know. The older Camillus made ones.

Good luck on learning the new topography of knifedom. Maybe someone will eventually publish a map that will stay current for more than a week.
 
"You can't buy a U.S. or European made folder for $15."

Actually there are folders make in Europe that sell for $15 -- they are called opinels. And sometimes you get the venerable douk douk for that price too. SAKs also retail for $15. Very many spanish companies also produce a good knife cheaply -- Muela for example

This is not to be confrontational or anything. But I do want to highlight that it is possible to keep production costs fairly decent while remaining in the country of origin. Also that not all non-us made knifes are crap. CRKT and spyderco have has some good runs in Taiwan and China. And Spain, France and Italy have been highly regarded as producers of fine knives.

Having said that, I'm really upset that a lot of good US companies are going bust.
 
On the positive side for USA made knives, I was pleasantly surprised to see my local hardware store has started carrying the Buck 303 again (after not doing so for about a year). They started carrying a lot of chinese stuff, but I guess enough folks asked for an American made alternative. I went ahead and bought one for about $25, which is a bit more than the Chinese version (373) goes for at the Big Box stores, but I'd rather spend a few extra dollars and keep the hardware guy working. Besides, I like the delrin handles on a work knife, easy to maintain. I hope that the Amercan 300 series stays in production and returns to more dealer's shelves.
 
Our local Tru Value carries Case in yellow handle and Amber Bone, both in CV, no stainless. Not a big selection, but nice. I've bought a few of the yellows there. They also have a display of Schrades, but they are the new ones. A fact the little older lady who works there is quick to bemoan. She knows more about the knives than the young guys working there. I probably should pop in a buy another Case soon just to keep them encouraged. The prices are naturally higher than online, but a few extra bucks now and then to support the local hardware and to encourage keeping the Case CVs on hand is worth it.
 
"The bitterness of low quality is remembered long after the sweetness of cheap price is forgotten."
 
Ah, that's the one! One of the great lessons of knife! errr - - life! I'm glad someone remembered the words. Now if I can just remember who I am!!:eek: :D
 
Our local Tru Value carries Case in yellow handle and Amber Bone, both in CV, no stainless. Not a big selection, but nice. I've bought a few of the yellows there. They also have a display of Schrades, but they are the new ones. A fact the little older lady who works there is quick to bemoan. She knows more about the knives than the young guys working there. I probably should pop in a buy another Case soon just to keep them encouraged. The prices are naturally higher than online, but a few extra bucks now and then to support the local hardware and to encourage keeping the Case CVs on hand is worth it.
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My local True Value only sells Chinese made knives, and pretty low quality ones at that. They used to sell Irish Imperials, but those days are over.
 
mp510 said:
My local True Value only sells Chinese made knives, and pretty low quality ones at that. They used to sell Irish Imperials, but those days are over.
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Bummer! I better pay a little more attention to mine to keep them thinking straight.
 
Count me in on being confused. What is the status of Camillus? I get a brochure from Sharde talking about American values and their tradition. What American values and tradition, unless you consider selling the name to Taylor and made in China, tradition. I really like traditional folders from Boker and I see this:http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425281

I have a few Marbles fixed blades which I assume are made in the USA, but they have no markings. Are some Marbles pocket knives still made in the USA? Are their any Remingtions still made in the USA or are all of them made in China and if there are a few made here, who makes them? I have seen a few Sharde's made in the USA, are they old knives or a few of them made here?

The more I try to make sense of the knife market the more I get confused. And I think it will only get worse.
 
What is the status of Camillus
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They were still alive last time I checked, but they were in a pretty bad financial situation, and the strike was still in progress so production had halted. Not sure if it is over or not, but as of 22 SEP 2006, the company was reviewing a union deal in order to end the strike.
http://www.syracuse.com/business/poststandard/index.ssf?/base/business-5/1158917300254550.xml&coll=1

Sharde talking about American values and their tradition. What American values and tradition, unless you consider selling the name to Taylor and made in China, tradition
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Not sure if Schrade really had much choice in selling out. They filed for bankruptcy, and sold off everything- parts inventory, trademarks, etc.... to pay creditors. It's called liquidation. It would have been nice if Taylor kept Schrade here, but they are an importer/ distributor and they outsourced.

Bummer! I better pay a little more attention to mine to keep them thinking straight.
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Yes it is a bummer, and as I said, they aren't even the descent quality Chinese ones. That said, their invetory hasn't moved in a while. Some of the knives ave been there 3 to 5 years.
 
Thanks for the update on Cammillus. I would like to see them survive. As far as Schrade leaving, I guess we can look at one positive thing from their failure is the opening up of Canal Street Cuterly. Also, Buck moving to Idaho to be more competitive was a good move. Maybe we should look at the positive changes, though they are few and far between.
 
Check out the latest link:
http://www.syracuse.com/poststandar...ness-5/1160471532282270.xml&coll=1&thispage=1
The Union voted no.

This is a quote from page 2 of the article:
"Company negotiators told union representatives that Camillus would call back 20 or fewer workers, Valenti said. The company told him that it needed fewer workers because it was transitioning from making knives to repackaging imported knives, he said."

It looks like the Camillus we all loved is fast fading into the sunset. Bummer!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Dale
 
Economics folks , it's not just American knife companies doing it.
You can place the bulk of the blame on the American consumer (ourselves). We are the ones that demand consistantly lower prices while maintaining top quality at any cost.

American companies have to worry about , health insurance , workers comp , TAXES up the whazoo , increasing property cost , lawsuits , theft etc etc etc.
Most of those are not a problem in places like China , hence the extremly low cost of much of thier merch.
Look at your PC for a sec , if you have one part on your PC made in America , I will buy you a beer or a cup of joe. Look at your TV , your car stereo , your toaster , your ipod..... The list is long indeed.

I repeat, the bulk of this can be laid at our own feet. :)
 
Sad but true for most! I personally will spend a little more to buy American, or Canadian (America's best ally).
 
In regards to Schade, anything made by Taylor will state imported, anything from Schrade USA will state that it was made before the fall, and was made in the USA, and the knives assembled by Taylor from original Schrade parts made in the USA, will state as such in the catalog.
 
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