Integral knife

Joined
Jun 9, 2015
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6,182
I like to try to make one small integral knife .I will use thick 52100 steel for one and thick 5160 for other one.I will not forge them , stock removal is much easier to do for me .
Question i have is this ..........Is it OK to make integral knife with forge welded parts for bolster and pommel ? I mean , say on 5mm thick flat steel i just forge weld thick bolsters from both side ,same from pommel if i decide to use it ? That way is far less work then forging it from thick piece of steel or stock removal from thick piece ?
What do you think ?
I have already cut one thick piece 52100 steel for first one.......I never cut till the end so i can break it and to see what i have inside that steel . SKF never disappointed me , never....:thumbsup:
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How can anyone don t like something like this :D

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That is commonly done.
I've done it with carbon damascus bolsters and pommel on a hunter.
Just get good welds. TIG the bolsters/pommel all the way around and then forge weld. Use plenty thick stock for tehn blade and the add-on pieces.Since the stock bar and bolsters/pommel are larger than the final knife the TIG will be milled and ground away.
 
That is commonly done.
I've done it with carbon damascus bolsters and pommel on a hunter.
Just get good welds. TIG the bolsters/pommel all the way around and then forge weld. Use plenty thick stock for tehn blade and the add-on pieces.Since the stock bar and bolsters/pommel are larger than the final knife the TIG will be milled and ground away.
Thanks ! There should be no visible line , right ? I mean when I forge weld 52100 with 52100 ?
How much plenty thick stock is enough ? 5-6-7 mm ? Very little force is needed to make weld , so i think that there should be very little deformation on blank ? If you think that's why thicker steel is needed ?
 
6-7mm should be OK. The stack would be 18-21mm, and after the weld about 15-17mm. That is probably thick enough for some slimmer blades, but a tad more would allow for grinding and shaping. You might want to consider a 6-7mm blade piece and 10mm bolster pieces.
 
Salem Straub has done either a WIP or video showing him doing this once.
Here's a link you might like:
https://bladeforums.com/threads/sho...ings-or-give-me-advice.1409415/#post-16250331
Thanks for that link weo :thumbsup: I found some very interesting tool just right for this kind of work .So , I make one .......slightly different but the same function . I used SIC ring seal from big submersible water pumps.............
This one is from that thread ........clever design from erik markman :thumbsup:

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This is mine...........i will need it for this project .Al tube is from automobiles , driver air bag, prefect for this .Just little work on lathe :thumbsup:
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This bolt will serve to fix somewhere this tool .....now i see that i have no photo with finished tool , I mean with pads for holding blade ....

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That was easy, now on difficult category..............:D Well i have a blank ,thick one but it is almost finished , i mean it is forged straight and almost in final shape .It has taper from spine to edge , prefect for this project . 20mm thick on spine for now .Now i have no idea how to proceed with work . I want to HT whole knife . I have several option , I m talking about handle ,blade is easy part . One way is to grind steel distal taper between guard and butt .Other way is to grind between guard and to make thick pommel .The third option I like the most.......I have enough steel in handle part to shape handle , then I can remove from inside of the handle lot of steel and fill it with carbon at the end ?? What worries me is .............quenching ? I have no idea how will steel react in quench in all three ways ??
First I cut this and then heat it and straighten.No need to fight whole bearing
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I must forge tip little , missing several mm. there ...
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OK ,here it is ................I make some progress :)
Quenched in brine , tempered 2 X two hour on 180 Celsius .Sand blasted with SIC after HT and then hand sanding .All major grinding was done on grinder , not easy task for me but i done that .Now little fine tuning around guard and pommel , then grind bevels and I will install temporary scale from wood for final shaping of guard and pommel .After that real scale and pins .........I've always wanted to use pins in the shape of a half moon and now is the right time to do that ....
4.8mm on spine ,tang is little more then 5mm .
First picture is before HT ..........
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Progress looks good. If you could bring your guard and pommel lines parallel to each other I think it would be very aesthetically pleasing.
 
Progress looks good. If you could bring your guard and pommel lines parallel to each other I think it would be very aesthetically pleasing.
I don t understand what you mean ? Parallel in which way ?
 
Parallel to each other. The inside angles do not look the same. The guard seems steeper than the pommel does.
 
Parallel to each other. The inside angles do not look the same. The guard seems steeper than the pommel does.
You mean on this lines ................right ?
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They will be parallel , of course .Now they are very close , I still haven't used the new tool made just for that .I will do that after i finish shape guard and pommel , less material to remove that way and less chance for error. :thumbsup:
 
Ok I figured you had a plan to get there but it kinda jumped out at me.
Well, plan worked till now .I mount temporary scale on knife to help with shaping guard and pommel and done that .Now i have no idea how to finish .....Guard and pommel are now 95 % finish shaped .I will make correction so guard and pommel lines to be parallel to each other, i will grind bevels /hollow/ and have no idea how to finish.I want to hard chrome whole knife. I want to use two pins/ 10mm/ from stainless and in shape of half moon .To do that i must use carbon fiber and molded directly on tang with pins installed .I can do that , but how i will shape handle after that without scratching hard chrome finish ? If i finish scale before hard chrome ,they can t temper knife after chroming which need to be done on at least 180 Celsius and carbon can t handle that temperature .Maybe to make scale one by one and shape them to final finish .........but what with pins ? Delicate shape , I have no idea if i can pull them out from molded scale and even harder will be to install them back ?I can use wax but installing them back on scales ?Seems that i want to much :)

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I would preshape the scale as you suggested. If you really want the half moon pins, maybe drill 10mm holes through the scales and fill the rest with black epoxy or even with red or similar colour, i think it might be a nice contrast.

Or hard chrome it, tape it to shit and then mould the handle, clean the epoxy, tape it again (maybe with something like strong aluminium tape), finish 90 percent on grinder and then with hand as not to slip on the chrome.

Maybe a heat reflective tape (Kapton) if you finish the handle before hard chroming would work?

First option sounds best to me..
 
I would preshape the scale as you suggested. If you really want the half moon pins, maybe drill 10mm holes through the scales and fill the rest with black epoxy or even with red or similar colour, i think it might be a nice contrast.

Or hard chrome it, tape it to shit and then mould the handle, clean the epoxy, tape it again (maybe with something like strong aluminium tape), finish 90 percent on grinder and then with hand as not to slip on the chrome.

Maybe a heat reflective tape (Kapton) if you finish the handle before hard chroming would work?

First option sounds best to me..
Well , that can be done on any type of scale ............... but we lose reaction when someone sees the handles....... how the hell you fit them there :D no that anyone here /i mean here in Macedonia/ will notice that ......... and only way to do that is to mold scale around pins .I don t know , I have some phenolic resin for carbon which can handle very high temperature /used for making parts from carbon for military rocket launcher/ but to set also need high temperature ....and i will need to make new mould/press just for that , which can fit in tempering oven ...........as i say already , maybe I want to much to do on this knife .....First thing first ..i will finish inside part of guard and pommel ,grind bevels and Tig weld half moon pins on place and i will think later how to continue further.But first i need to check hardness , i have feeling that it is to hard as it is now ..........
 
It has been two years since the beginning of this project , now is the moment of truth ............ :)
So far I like what I see . I filled some parts of mold with wood to save on carbon, but in the end it was a bit lacking of carbon . I filled it with a nylon bag 🤣Now i need to wait another 24 hours to completely dry epoxy/carbon . Weight is 245 grams now as it is ,blank was 135 grams.
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Before I start with carbon i decide to make small correction on front of guard .It take me some time to adjust jig .And i do it right ! Then i decide to grind small sharpening choil with Dremel .And I make deep scratch on guard !!! I spend that day fighting with guard .Now i need to find way to grind that small bulged part , SAFE way or i will get heart attack 🤣
Picture is before i try to grind that sharpening choil
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185 grams and I like it . Almost done ,this is from grinder , now little hand sanding and I m done .There are several very small voids on both side but i can t catch them on photo They come and gone as i was shaping handle but this one will need to be filled .Personally i like them to be there , they look cool to me .I am not robot :)
I just got a new toy, it will be fun to compete with my kids 🤣
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I will make another one , I already forget how much effort I put into this one 🤣
It is not that hard I just need to remove about 1200 grams steel :)
Little bigger this time
Straightening ball bearing steel
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Steel is tapered and i want to stay like that so I adjust it how it lay on magnetic shuck
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Cooling blank , I can t remove it from chuck , it works .................
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20mm on spine , 12mm on bottom side
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I leave about 2 mm around blank so now I can fine adjust/grind spine and bottom side to get perfect geometry I mean parallel spine with bottom side .now it is maybe 95 %
measured by eye
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Dimension on handle are almost perfect , like there was scale on it .Just little shaping for true handle .Maybe i should skeletonized handle and filled it after that with carbon ? I have another crazy idea how to make handle , we'll see ....
I will grind blade for bevels on my surface grinder .I mean I will grind them flat and after that i will grind bevels .That way I will have perfectly parallel both side of blade and also would be reference for precisely shaping handle side ...
 
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I make some progress , now it is very close to final dimension and with right geometry all over . Blade is now 7mm I will grind it to 5mm after HT and after that I will grind bevels .I will shape front of guard with files and I need to drill some holes in handle. I will cut inside of handle in shape and final shape the handle after HT then carbon fiber or Kevlar , I don t know yet .I need that flat parts of handle for grinding bevels with jig . I quench 52100 in brine so .................thicker steel is more safe for quenching in brine .Because of shape of knife I am afraid of wrapping if I open handle before HT ?
My small but when i need it big work rest on my horizontal grinder 🤣
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I am not 100% sure but for now this is how I plan to open inside of handle, spine and bottom part .I can cut that after HT on laser but i want to do that with my hands .

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bottom side
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spine side
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I was very careful with temperature in steel /bright orange / when i was straightening that piece of ball bearing .I heat it maybe six or seven times .I HT one cut off piece after that and break it to see grain .They are little bigger then should be but not much ? Seems that they don t grow that fast ?

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Steel is in condition as I finish with straightening that ball bearing .And HSS cobalt drill bits can t drill hole in it ??? Is it hardened because of thickness ?? I don t get it ? Six or seven heating on over 900 C and it air hardened ??
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I do thermal cycling after that and steel was soft to drill and use file !!
Almost done , I need to fine tune that opening in handle. I don t know should I open/cut slots between holes I already dill on spine of handle and on bottom side of handle NOW or after HT ?
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This is what I will quench .................in brine or in molten lead ? I will open new thread to ask about that :)
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