Is building a propane forge really that simple?

I've been looking into the blown burner, but I haven't been able to find many pictures, diagrams, videos, or tutorials. Do you guys know of anything i could use as a guide? this is the best I found. http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=9102 They seem pretty simple though. Also, which style will be more efficient on propane, or is there much difference? I won't be welding yet or anything like that. Just simple forging and heat treating. I'm mostly just learning to forge now and I really want to get the most practice I can out of one propane tank. Also could you recommend any good forge blowers too? I have no idea what to look for. I'd like it to be pretty cheap, but also decent quality.
 
Post#18 has the link, but here it is again.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/782574-PID-CONTROL-FORGE-Salt-Pots-and-more

There are forge plans, burner plans, salt pot info, etc. on that sticky.

Daniel,
The first things I always say to new folks is, "Welcome to Shop Talk". Next is, "Please fill out your profile with all the info". Third is ,"Read the Stickies at the top of the Shop Talk page.".
The Stickies have the answers to 95% of all questions asked by newer knifemakers.

High temp Tools and Refractory has burner kits ( and finished burners) for barely above what you will find the parts for at the hardware store....All in one box, and they are the right parts. - http://hightemptools.com/
 
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Just to add to Stacy's very thorough advice... If you are looking at PID control steer clear of ebay. The prices may seem irresistable but most of the stuff there is counterfeit or just flat junk. There are a few reputable guys there but all in all its better to find it elsewhere at a reputable source with good customer service.
The same goes for the rest of the parts. I have only had one good experience with component purchase on ebay, the rest has been complete junk... They advertise low quality stuff as kaowool and whatnot and it is usually low grade wood stove insulation etc...
 
Agreed. High Temp Tools, and places like Auberins stay in business because they sell top quality stuff. After a while, you can learn to tell the good from the hype on ebay, but the old caveat, "If it seems too good to be true.....it isn't.", almost always applies.
 
I would add to the good advice already on here:

- The designs that use a mig tip as a gas nozzle work better than a drilled hole. If you use a coupling to attach the mig tip to the nipple, grind the coupling as smooth as you can to keep a less friction in path of the air flow. I did mine in a lathe, but anything that smooths out the right angles on the coupling will help.

- This wasn't my idea, but it works: to align your gas jet squirt water through it. After trying to plumb something, I just took a big swig and blew it through the pipe with my mouth.

- My personal recipe for stabilizing the refractory is pudding thick mix 50/50 Kaolin and Fiberfrax. Let it dry, and heat it over multiple cycles. ITC-100 sticks to this stuff pretty well, and but you can use the mix to stabilize, then a light coat of the more expensive reflective coating over the mix. The dry Kaolin and Fiberfrax come from the pottery supply place.

- If your burner sticks straight out of the top of the forge, it works like a chimney when you turn the gas off, and heats up your burner parts pretty hot.
 
Some more forge building tips:
1) The burner should enter the chamber from the side at a tangent near the top. It should be angled about 15 degrees forward. It can be horizontal, or even slightly uphill toward the forge. It should not enter straight in the top pointing at the floor. I know you see a lot of those on ebay, but it is terrible knife forge engineering. The burner should make the flames swirl around the chamber walls, not make the floor hot in one place. Multiple burners should be spaced as needed, but should follow the rules for a single burner as far as angles and such. Try and mortar the burner flare into the wool and Satanite as smoothly as possible.
2) A burner flare makes the burner run better and last longer. Stainless is preferred for the flare.
3) The wool can be stiffened with Rigidizer. This makes it easier to apply the refractory coating, as well as stabilizing loose fibers.
4) The wool needs a covering of refractory. Never use it as is, or there will be tiny fibers blown out in the exhaust. Ever heard of mesothelioma?
Most folks use Satanite to coat the wool. Put on a 1/4" layer, let it dry well for a couple days. Try and make the interior as smooth as possible when applying the satanite.
When dry, fire at low for a while, let cool, and fire at medium. Repair any cracks, and when all is good, fire at full heat until the insides are glowing. Shut off and let cool.
5) The refractory will work better with a reflective coating on it. ITC-100 is one common type. Paint on a thin coat, let it dry, and fire it to cure. Sometimes a second coat is a good idea.
6) Avoid anything that resembles an angle or is rough as much as possible. The burner should be smooth inside, have no projections in the path of the fluids ( gas and air), and have smooth curves instead of 90 degree bends. All this isn't always possible, but think of the flow path of the air/gas and try to avoid any turbulence that you can.
7) A mixing chamber in a blown burner is a very good thing. It is merely a place the pipe gets bigger for about 4" and then gets smaller again. This creates a very well mixed gas/air blend to be burned in the chamber. The average manifold pipe is 1.5", so the mixing chamber is usually 3".
8) Front and back ports need to only be big enough to do the interior work ( satanite and ITC-100) and allow the blades you make to go in. The front port is usually about 3X4" and the back about 3X3". The back can be plugged with a fire brick when not needed. The ports should be flush with the chamber floor.
9) The blower motor should be higher than the burner. This is not an absolute, but is good engineering. It prevents any gas from back pooling in the manifold during a power failure and then accidentally igniting by the motor sparks when the power comes back on. The best way to not have to deal with this is to have a master shut-off solenoid valve in the gas line. It should be a NC valve....power goes off - gas stops flowing.
10) While a forge needs to be well built, it can be over built. Unless you need them, whistles and bells aren't much more than trim. One good add-on is a sliding work rest. Weld two pieces of 1/2" ID pipe down the forge body sides. They should be at the position of the forge floor. Make a slide by putting two 24" pieces of round bar in them and setting a piece of 3"X1/4" steel across them. If the steel is roughly at the same height as the forge floor, clamp it on and weld it in place. This will make a 3" shelf at the port when it is pushed all the way in, and a bar/tong support when pulled out. I consider a slide like this the best thing since sliced bread. The pipe pieces can be welded to the legs if that is easier, and the shelf raised as needed. I think that you guys can figure out how to do that
.

Safety Note:
Looking into a running forge can seriously damage your eyes. Sun glasses, or glasses made for glass work won't make it safe. Use a pair of glasses made for this job. Even with them, try and avoid starring into the forge for more than a few seconds at a time.
 
Can I substitute the commonly found pink fiberglass insulation for the ceramic wool, or will it not withstand the high temperature?

Where can I get the special bricks that people use?
 
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NO! PINK INSULATION WILL NOT WORK!!! Ceramic insulation is way different than your fiberglass insulation in your house...
Sorry but that needed a yell... Only use high quality refractory components, for everything.
The bricks are called firebrick, come in hard and soft, full and half sizes and can be found at some big box hardware stores depending on your area. Aside from that, look for a brick supplier in your area. Call them and ask, they will almost always have bricks and refractory mortar. I use General Shale and Brick and I think they are a nation wide business.
The end use will determine the size and type of brick you need...
 
NO! PINK INSULATION WILL NOT WORK!!! Ceramic insulation is way different than your fiberglass insulation in your house...
Sorry but that needed a yell... Only use high quality refractory components, for everything.
The bricks are called firebrick, come in hard and soft, full and half sizes and can be found at some big box hardware stores depending on your area. Aside from that, look for a brick supplier in your area. Call them and ask, they will almost always have bricks and refractory mortar. I use General Shale and Brick and I think they are a nation wide business.
The end use will determine the size and type of brick you need...

I've never found insulating fire-brick at a mainstream store.
These bricks are super light and soft, you can carve them with a spoon.

Look at Pottery supply stores for repairing kilns
Look for K23 or K25


http://www.morganthermalceramics.co...fb/insulating-firebrick-global-product-range/

You can use the where to buy links to find local suppliers
I prefer to buy them locally and ensure they are intact.
 
I've never found insulating fire-brick at a mainstream store.
These bricks are super light and soft, you can carve them with a spoon.

Look at Pottery supply stores for repairing kilns
Look for K23 or K25


http://www.morganthermalceramics.co...fb/insulating-firebrick-global-product-range/

You can use the where to buy links to find local suppliers
I prefer to buy them locally and ensure they are intact.

I am a process engineer at Thermal Ceramics (Augusta site) it's kinda cool to see our products being mentioned on bf! But I would definitely recommend using the firebrick it's extremely impressive what these bricks can do, and they are extremely lightweight.. Plus if you line the inside with the kaowool previously mentioned you will never feel the heat. I have personally melted bolts on my hand using only a 1/2 inch thick blanket as shielding
 
I've never found insulating fire-brick at a mainstream store.
These bricks are super light and soft, you can carve them with a spoon.

My local Lowe's has a pallet of hard firebrick.. $1.15 a brick. It isn't as insulating as a soft firebrick, but is rated to 3000f and is far more durable. There is a trade-off, but it works for me.
Note I said MY local Lowe's... Why I said some not all. I was honestly surprised to see them there, however it is a valid stock number for them so it isn't just a one time order oddity. They said they always keep a pallet here in my town...
This forge is made from them, and I can forge weld at 10psi with an atmospheric burner... And the cart doesn't get all that hot considering... Stock paint is just fine on it.

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how do I make the fuel mixture get more air in it? my aspiring forge just shoots huge orange flames out the front.
 
When I searched Home Depot for supplies, it seems different regions have different stock. Refractories are listed in Eastern Canada but not Western Canada.
 
ok, I fixed that by putting holes in the intake pipe. ...but now it only gets to a dull red hot. I used sand and diatomaceous earth to insulate the steel tube that is the body of the forge. the whole thing is inside of an ammo can and the sides get a bit hot to the touch, but the top only barely gets warm. I'm surprised it even got that hot... I don't know if I should try using clay on the inside of the forge, and bricks around the can, or if I should just get a few G-23 fire bricks from here: http://www.sheffield-pottery.com/SOFT-BRICKS-Insulating-Firebrick-s/372.htm. need to get a new credit card first.

edit: I've decided to make a 3-brick forge: three of the 9"x4.5"x2.5" G-23 bricks, two stacked to make a 4.5"x 5" body in which I will make a hole with a 1.25" radius. The third brick I will cut in half and use as doors or plugs with reduced-size exhaust vents. I might make an improved propane burner for it, based on a large tank, not a camping sized tank. I don't really need ITC-100 or insawool, right?

I'm just gonna forget about that POS thing I made today...
 
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There are 3 different types of refractory. There is thermal mass that doesn't melt or burn (hard ceramic 3000 degree firebrick is a good example) insulating refractory which keeps thermal energy contained (soft firebrick and inswool are prime examples) and reflective refractory which reflects heat energy back into a source (ITC100 is a good example)
With enough energy input you can heat anything up to welding temperatures, it takes a lot of energy to heat up multiple pounds of hard firebrick to the point where they are not absorbing heat from a forge, an insulating material such as inswool will keep the heat in the chamber where it belongs, a reflective refractory like ITC100 will increase the efficiency by reflecting the infrared energy back. No you don't need inswool or ITC100, but they sure are nice to have

-Page
 
What kind of regulator are you using? BBQ regs won't work. Gotta have high pressure.

And there is no substitute for real refractory products. They not only contain the heat, the reflect it and help maintain a more even temp.

So I guess we have all answered the OP question! No, its not "that simple." :D
 
No Eric, I think you are missing the point. It is that easy.

A fairly sturdy shell to contain the insulation - 8-10" pipe is the standard
An insulation blanket - Kaowool is the standard
A refractory coating on the insulation - Satanite is the standard
A reflective coating on the refractory ( you could even skip this, but it adds a lot) - ITC-100 is the standard
A heat source - Propane fueled Venturi and Blown burners are the standard

You may notice that this forge basic list combines the attributes of the three types of refractory products Page mentioned.

You can get much fancier, but the basic working part of any forge is these five things.

So to make it a simple physics formula .... M(T+E)=F
Where:
M = $100 max.
T = a few weeks of ordering and scrounging the materials
E = two or three weekends of construction
F = years of good forging fun
( Note - Increasing any of the M,T,E by a factor of 2 will make the F last longer)
 
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