Jim, possibly another angle with Legislators.

Don Rearic · Jun 4, 2001

Jim,

I don't know if it is such a good idea to gather every knife that can be snapped. I think if you go in there to try to prove that all knives can be snapped open, that you might just push them over the edge.

If you show them that every folder with some form of device can be snapped or otherwise quickly opened, I think that is playing into their hands...

I think a different approach is in order.

You take a common kitchen knife, butcher knife, carpet knife with retractable blade, boxcutter, screwdrivers...all of these...

Obtain a small TV/VCR Combo, don't count on them having this device, and a copy of "Surviving Edged Weapons."

Before you go, cue up the areas where the tape discusses the screwdriver being the second most common weapon for "civilian homicide." And you go through that and collect the tidbits you need to show that folding knives, by and large, are not the problem...

Take carboard and duct tape and make "sheaths" so the kitchen and butcher knife can be carried inside the waistband, which is how most criminals will carry them...

And focus on all of these implements that are actually used to kill people.

Steve B. · Jun 5, 2001

I have to agree with Don. Showing off how easily some common designs can snap open may come back to bite you. I`m especially concerned about putting the Ken Onion Speed-Safe on display for a bunch of legislators. I think Cali can kiss the Speed-Safes goodbye if this happens.

It`s not my state, and I don`t know how (or if) your legislators think, so I may be wrong.

Is Sal Glesser involved at all?

Have you all gotten a copy of the Customs finding in the CRK&T ruling, covering the importing of their tactical liner lock?

Good luck, Jim, and keep those ATKI guys on a short leash! No more "secret meetings" with the enemy, huh?

Jim March · Jun 5, 2001

Hmmm. Ya, we don't need the SpeedSafe to show that "fast action" can be wrung out of all kinds of stuff, such as my roommie's mellow little Spydie Goddard. I did some snap-tests with it...absolutely no problem doing a quick and easy-looking "downsnap" to reverse, forward snaps are a lot harder.

On the other hand, bringing "surviving edged weapons" anywhere near there is...well...Don, you've had some damned good ideas over the years, but that ain't one of 'em

.

Jim

Don Rearic · Jun 5, 2001

Originally posted by Jim March:
On the other hand, bringing "surviving edged weapons" anywhere near there is...well...Don, you've had some damned good ideas over the years, but that ain't one of 'em

.

Jim

You're right Jim, it isn't a "damned good idea," it's a damned excellent idea actually.

I wrote something very specific, please consider:

"Obtain a small TV/VCR Combo, don't count on them having this device, and a copy of "Surviving Edged Weapons."

Before you go, cue up the areas where the tape discusses the screwdriver being the second most common weapon for "civilian homicide." And you go through that and collect the tidbits you need to show that folding knives, by and large, are not the problem..."

Cue, cue, cue, cue...Law Enforcement is driving this...hit them with their own, highly selective propaganda.

Every time "we" help "them," they use it against us...use it back. It's your video, when you leave, take it with you.

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Usual Suspect, Electromagnet for Trolls and Manipulator of Sharp Things... Some of my Knives and other neat things

medusaoblongata · Jun 5, 2001

Jim, what Don is saying here, is to show them only the parts of the video that say that folding knives are not the problem. That might have been a better idea if this whole mess hadn't started with police complaining about people with pocket knives.

Don Rearic · Jun 5, 2001

Originally posted by medusaoblongata:
Jim, what Don is saying here, is to show them only the parts of the video that say that folding knives are not the problem. That might have been a better idea if this whole mess hadn't started with police complaining about people with pocket knives.

There are many places in that video that can be helpful. Comments about screwdrivers, kitchen knives and scissors.

There are multiple shots of live action photos that were taken with psychos in the street, I have not watched it in some time, but as I recall, every one of the actual pictures they had taken on the street, with the exception of one folder that looked like a Buck 110 Folder, were larger Butcher Knives.

I hate to sound negative, but if you cannot go in there and present a case that people simply do not use the targeted items, by and large, in real crimes, then you might as well not go at all.

Go in and argue the AKTI side about detents/balls...

You might get away with it, then again, they will be back.

Best to LEGITIMIZE folders and cast the light on the real instruments used in most homicide, which are common, every day items that cannot ever be controlled.

I see nothing wrong with the approach.

Jim March · Jun 6, 2001

Don, my apologies, it's a better idea that I gave credit for.

Hmmm.

Getting AV equipment is no problem. I have some contacts in Senator Hayne's office, they should have something. SAS knows another legislator who donated use of podium and sound system at the SAS rally in Sacramento a few weeks ago, they'll have some connections.

There's two real problems though:

1) Time. Typically, at these committee hearings there'll be about 10 minutes of talk time available for a bill's primary proponents and opponents. Then there's a bit of public commentary, two or three minutes per person, then some questions from committee members maybe. It's not enough time to show much video plus get your verbal arguments in.

2) Decisions about altering bills are generally made BEFORE the committee hearing, which is mostly a rubber-stamp dog'n'pony show. Or more accurately, it's a public show of debate, the real decisions have already happened. That's why lobbyists get the big bucks, if the debate was really public we wouldn't need 'em.

Now, that doesn't mean making changes at the committee hearing is hopeless.

Hmmm. The alternative is to play the bits of video as described for the bill's author and staff, try and get them to make changes. Problem there is they've picked a real committed weapons control freak for the bill's sponsor. I don't know that reasoning with 'em is possible.

Now, I've got the contact info for the Ventura County DA who is one of the key players here. I've talked to Jeff Gorell by phone, we had a long pleasant conversation, and then I followed it with EMail describing the "Bladeforums alternative" of "criminal control", sending him a polished version of the code from the other thread. Him and CJ have also talked. I don't know what him and CJ are discussing in any detail, but there's some sort of plan whereby AKTI alters their legislative intent statements away from "we're gonna ban snapopens".

If that latter is all we get out of all this debate here on BF, it'll have been worth it. I want more of course.

We've got one major thing going in our favor. This year above all others, the legislature doesn't want to look stupid as the lights slowly dim. The latest joke going around Sacramento:

What is the difference between Governor Davis and the Titanic?

The Titanic went down with the lights on!

So in conclusion, if we've got all of 10 minutes to make our best arguments, I would say something like (highly condensed form):

"This law will add lots of ambiguity and lead honest people to break the knife laws with knives they already own and carry daily. And because the existing legislative intent statements by AKTI and others say "we're banning snapopens" which is different from what the published code will read, leaving honest people confused.

Instead of confusing laws and penalizing people if their pivot screws loosen up in their pockets, let's ban actual criminals from carrying ANY knife over 2", regardless of construction, and then leave honest people alone. The benefit to law enforcement is that they'll be able to prevent genuine criminals from carrying stuff like a Buck 110 which is just as deadly as anything else in it's size class."

That's a summary. Don, if I understand you right, you want to add in:

"None of these folders are the real criminal weapons of choice - kitchen knives lead the list by a long margin in terms of knives, with screwdrivers being another major threat."

To drive that home, you want to cite bits of that video.

It's a good point, especially if we can make it quickly. Remember, we've got all of 10 minutes or so. Is there any other data we can use to prove that point? Any published criminology regarding types of non-firearm weapons used in actual street crime? Might not have the power of the video though.

Hmmmmmmm.

OK, let's do this. Give it a day or two, let's see if the basic concept passes the giggle test by that DA in Ventura who's influential in this process. If it looks like we can maybe get him on board, maybe we can convince AKTI that this "criminal control" approach may be possible.

Also, there's the CDAA. If the Ventura DA seems receptive, we can maybe lobby their top people in Sacramento. We really don't have a prayer unless we've got some momentum and support before going into the committee hearing.

Failing that, we'll still try and fight in committee regardless but it'll look like Custer's last stand.

Waddya think?

We STILL need to know where CJ and AKTI stand...

Jim

Don Rearic · Jun 6, 2001

There is a specific passage in that video [SEW] where it states flat out that the screwdriver is the #2 weapon in the "edged weapons" category for "civilian homicide."

Now, I know for a fact that in the last 20 years there has only been one year where long guns killed more people in the United States than anything you can define as an edged weapon.

I can find that site for you, the problem is, it does not break down instrument by instrument...that's a problem.

There are some graphic photos in that video, it is a Law Enforcement training video after all, one guy lying out on the Coroner's Table with a pair of full size shears in his chest...serious stuff...one guy had a damned table fork, if you can possibly fathom that, right through the chest...

The point being, there is no sense in legislating pocketknives any further as they are not even a blip on the radar screen when it comes to mayhem on the street.

Screwdrivers, kitchen knives and all sorts of razor knives are, however...

You can also inform the Committee that restrictions have been such in Britain that Hoodlums in that country refer to their knives as "Stanleys" after the Manufacture of a razor knife, not because they prefer that Manufacturer, but the design. They also call razor knives and boxcutters, "The Liverpool Credit Card," you don't leave home without it.

The point being? Ban pocket knives and you leave a plethora of edged weapons that have been used and will continue to be used and when examined in THAT light, this Legislation is absolutely aimed at honest people who are not hurting anyone, anyway. And that push and that attitude is being pushed by paranoia from Law Enforcement Personnel like the Ventura County Sheriff.

There is no better stabbing implement than an icepick, screwdriver or a pair of shears.

There is no better slashing instrument than a razor knife.

There is no better butchering instrument than a Butcher's Knife or medium to large Kitchen Knife, after all, that is what they are made for, cutting MEAT. People are constructed of MEAT.

There is one part of me that cannot believe that this is 2001 and we are actually still debating on the right of a person to simply have a POCKETknife. You will notice throughout this forum, I use CAPS for POCKET, there is a reason for that...

All of these things we are discussing, even the dreaded switchblade, is a damned POCKETknife...

Law Enforcement Personnel literally have a Batman Utility Belt on them and they are worried about Citizens carrying POCKETknives...

And, as always, it must be stressed, you can ban anything you want and the criminals will still obtain these items, and if you are going to have a Catch & Release System of dealing with criminals, what is the point in banning POCKETknives when they will always be available to those that want to break the law...yada yada yada...

Jesus...is this 2001?

Some people wonder why we cannot cure AIDS and Cancer, well, look at the vast amounts of time and money wasted debating POCKETknives that could be better spent in other areas.

For those of you in California, when the darkness comes this summer, just remember, this was the best your State Legislature could dream up...criminalizing people for their choice of POCKETknife.

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Usual Suspect
Ipsa scientia potestas est aut disce aut discede
Some of my Knives and other neat things

Safety Guy · Jun 11, 2001

Hey guys, another source of info which might give you some more leverage would be the FBI's "Officers Killed and Assaulted" summaries. These come out in booklet form for each year and besides having lists and charts, they have individual stories of officers who were killed, with (sometimes) quite a bit of detail. Years ago, I used them to look for more specific info on so-called "assault weapons" (sic).

Can't tell you much more, as my last copy was from about '93. I really need to get back on the BJS mailing list. Really good list to be on if you have a fire place.

Karl