Katzbalger : a strange sword ?

[herisson]

I'm new to the world of swords but the Katzbalger for some reason caught my attention. While I understand it's a very effective close quarters weapon (intended for the last fights "one on one" when all tactics had failed), I just can't wrap my mind around the round tip. OK, it was flat and sharp, but why put away the stabbing power of a straight sword with a pointy tip ? My thought is that the elaborate plate armours of this period were more vulnerable to a flat broad point that would do a lot of cutting damage instead of a limited deep wound... On the other hand, the foot soldiers fighting hand to hand weren't that armoured... And half-swording to slash around body on body is not good with the Katzbalger because it has two fully sharpened edges... Still wondering and curious about the thoughts of the well informed. Thanks for reading this and for your answers !

 

[panzertroop]

wikipedia says

The katzbalger is a side-arm, often used by pikemen, archers, and crossbowmen as a last resort if the enemy were to draw too close for bows or pikes to be effective.

It's mostly a cutting sword. The rounded tip is not very suitable for thrusting, while the flat, broad blade is specialized for cutting. As with other similar cutting-centric arming swords, it can still be using for thrusting, though it's only likely to do damage to unarmored targets.

The large, characteristic guard helps to block and parry other cutting attacks. However, its openings leave the hands vulnerable to thrusting attacks.

 

[John A. Larsen]

I have always had the same question, why the blunt point. The Roman Gladius is about the same size and was known for its sharp point. It seems to me that they just eliminated another option (stabbing) for a sword that is to be used in close combat. I have seen photos of old Katzbalgers with more of a sharp point, so some of them apparently did have pointed ends. John

 

[Mecha]

The rounded tip won't get caught up in folds of cloth or anything, and it would make cutting with just the end an easier and smoother operation, I would imagine. Thrusting would be more like push-cutting. Looks like a nice and effective design.

 

[kaotikross]

Considering the Landsnecht, the point may not have mattered much, as they engaged a lot of pikemen, and the goal there would be to cut down the pikes. Could also be they didn't want to be disarmed with a sword stuck point first in an enemy shield. Definitely more suitable for a sweeping style, as opposed to a feint and thrust style...

 

[herisson]

Some good points made here. The "not getting caught up" is certainly an important factor in a close-up melee. However the round tip pattern didn't really impose itself beyond the Landsknecht period, and even in this precise period, as proove the pointier Katzbalgers. And the sweeping cuts would have benefited from a handwide ricasso to "halfsword" and control thrust and sweep alike... I don't know if this type of Katzbalgers has been made. Cutting down the pikes was probably done with the big Zweihänders.

 

[Mecha]

Yes. As a pikeman, the Katzbalger would be your sidearm when this guy gets through your formation:

It's a great backup sword against a swarthy German doppelsoldner wearing lots of cloth and pimp hat!

GAH! Well now I have to make a Katzbalger.

 

[Professor_Jack]

And half-swording to slash around body on body is not good with the Katzbalger because it has two fully sharpened edges

you still do half-swording with sharp edges.

wikipedia says

The katzbalger is a side-arm, often used by pikemen, archers, and crossbowmen as a last resort if the enemy were to draw too close for bows or pikes to be effective.

It's mostly a cutting sword. The rounded tip is not very suitable for thrusting, while the flat, broad blade is specialized for cutting. As with other similar cutting-centric arming swords, it can still be using for thrusting, though it's only likely to do damage to unarmored targets.

The large, characteristic guard helps to block and parry other cutting attacks. However, its openings leave the hands vulnerable to thrusting attacks.

the german page is simultaneously much more informative and much less helpful.

My guess, since i disagree with the idea that the rounded point would be more effective against plate armor, is simply that its a measure to keep the blade from snagging anything. Its apparently recorded as having been usually carried without a scabbard, so you wouldn't want a point that would stick into you or your friends legs. Plus, any pronounced point is inherently weaker than a round shape, so it makes it less likely you'll snap the tip off and have to worry about damage to the steel's structure.

Thats MY guess, anyway

 

[herisson]

Hell yeah, this doppelsöldner would tipically be armed with a Zweihänder. They fought in first line and were used to break up the adverse pike formation. Then, all hell broke loose... Such a giant is best defeated by a slash at the ankles or knees (a job for the Katzbalger, indeed... You don't go stabbing / duelling with this guy !). For your pleasure, here are two very different Katzbalgers : the one on red cloth is short (20") and the fullered part of the blade looks unsharpened. Almost a dagger, rather than a sword. It's a copy of an original from a German museum. The other is an original from another museum and is probably around 3 feet long. This is a sword and possibly not meant for closest quarters fighting. As for the pike formation fighting, "Capitan Alatriste" gives quite a good rendering of it (although the story plays some decades after the times of the Landsknechte).

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[herisson]

@ professor jack : halfswording with sharp edges, yes, but specifically for stabbing, not the Katzbalgers strong suit. Otherwise, I can only agree about strength and not getting stuck, makes perfect sense. Obviously it was a weapon developped in and for a very specific kind of warfare. It disappeared / evolved rather quickly in favor of the rapière and other basket hilt swords, there are few originals preserved in museums.

 

[kaotikross]

I've been thinking about this, and..I have another theory. It's JUST a theory, but tell me what you think.

The Landsnecht were mercenaries, no disputing that, an army for hire. So, that being said, the object of that hireling army would be to "win", not necessarily to permanently dispatch a large amount of an army that could possibly be your ally in the next battle. Would you folks say it's possible the end is rounded in an effort to keep actual kills to a minimum? To perhaps cultivate some "positive marketing" among not only your present ally but also an enemy force? Could be, that if you fought for "Army A" against "Army B" a while back, and now you're in the employ of "Army B", you'd rather your new comrades realize the previous battle was "just business, nothing personal", and one way to do that would be to keep the vast majority of injuries as wounds, cuts, rather than run-throughs'. Also, look at the known examples of Executioner's swords of that era, no point. I would assume, given the medicine of the day, that having an arm or other limb cut off in battle would be MUCH preferred to being stabbed, as to the chances of seeing your wife and farm again. Perhaps the object was to simply render the enemy unable to fight.Thoughts? If you really were "for hire", would killing off a possible future employer be in your best business interests? What I'm saying is, if you actually "win" and kill off a crapload of the opponent, sure is gonna be a loooonnng time before that particular monarch or ruler has the cash to hire you, what with replacing his regular army.

 

[Mecha]

Interesting thoughts. There was a tradition of non-lethal battling among some North American Indian tribes, counting coup. Like tapping your enemy with a stick from horseback to show that you could have killed, but held back, as well as other feats of bravery and skill.

However, everything I've read about the landsknecht (which isn't all that much) says that they were ruthless, and had no problems employing scorched-earth tactics and taking no prisoners. They would fight to win the battles they were paid to fight with discipline, ferocity and courage, to the death of the last man.

 

[GWashington1732]

Yes. As a pikeman, the Katzbalger would be your sidearm when this guy gets through your formation:

It's a great backup sword against a swarthy German doppelsoldner wearing lots of cloth and pimp hat!

GAH! Well now I have to make a Katzbalger.

I'm not going to lie, if I saw that guy charging at me, I'd probably crap my pants.

 

[Mecha]

I'm not going to lie, if I saw that guy charging at me, I'd probably crap my pants.

Not to mention the double-edged sword approaching 6 feet in length. When I found out about the Landsknecht I thought they were the greatest thing since Ninjas. Still do.

 

[herisson]

Fantastic picture ! This is quite a well known classic but it gives some impressive insight what these fights were... (Bad War by H.Holbein). There's a Katzbalger wielded high on the left in the detail view below...

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[Mecha]

Very nice! Here's a good one: Gustave Jean Jacquet, The Departure of the Landsknechts, 1868. (pardon the water mark)

 

[kaotikross]

Hmm. there has to be some reason they weren't pointed. Did they have mayo? Maybe they used em to spread mayo on suckling pig sammiches. XD.

 

[herisson]

@ kaotikross : I've been mulling over your theory and it doesn't seem there was a kind of "point scoring" duelling code among Landsknechts. At least, not to the point it would have requested a specific sword. I would also add that in those times, with the lack of hygiene and very basic medical knowledge, almost any wound caused by the weapons of the time was potentially fatal, if not on the battlefield then in the days or weeks after.
Although you're right, the aim of the battle was generally to take over the field, not to exterminate the adverse army. The pike formations would push against each other and stab with pikes, spears and halberds until one side gave way and retreated. Being experienced warriors, the losing side probably realised quickly how things were turning and retreated. The winners were content with winning the field and mostly interested in making prisoners that would pay a ransom. Both sides were of course interested in keeping their forces as intact as possible for the next battle. So, yes, the battles, most of the time, were fought professionnally without gratuitous murdering. That was the "good war". However, you need to factor in that the Landsknechts were renowned for making short business of the battles they entered and they were very well paid for that. Whoever they fought, they had to stand up to their reputation.
Now, if none of the opponents gave way things had to escalate, or if there were "non professionnal" motivations involved (e.g. : revenge, repression of a revolt, punishment of treason,...), then the battle ended in a furious, merciless and bloody close quarters fight : the "bad war".
A reason for the different lengthes and tips of the Katzbalgers could be the experience and fighting background of the Landsknechts : I imagine if one was trained in Messer fighting he would prefer a short sword with round tip, specialized at slashing and cutting (which the Messer is essentially about), to keep with a familiar feel and technique. On the other hand, if one was trained in sword fencing (like those using the big Zweihänders), he might very well prefer a longer and pointier Katzbalger that would allow him to use also his fencing skills.
As for the mayo, I doubt even those huge Germans would have found the Katzbalger practical for snacking. They had the Baselard for that...
Anyway, with the broad, thin blade and the heavy flared pommel, I'm sure the point of balance was almost at the guard and the Katzbalger was an extremely fast and lively weapon that could successfully compete against daggers and longswords alike.
@ mecha : it looks like the guy in black carries a falchion or a big Messer while the red guy carries a Katzbalger. Quite the diversity !
If you're ever gonna make a Katzbalger, be sure to post pictures ! I will be all over it !

Here is another cool picture that shows a dynamic phase of a battle, with a column of Landsknechts charging, probably the "lost pack", a sort of suicide squad they used to wedge into and open the adverse pike formation.

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[horseclover]

The rounded tip won't get caught up in folds of cloth or anything, and it would make cutting with just the end an easier and smoother operation, I would imagine. Thrusting would be more like push-cutting. Looks like a nice and effective design.

Not just one man's thought

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Here under is a previous post of Gary Blinn (2010), which deals with rounded tips:

Katzbalger rounded tips
I found this forum through a Google search for "Katzbalgers" or "A weapon for a fight with tooth and nail". I believe I've found the reason for the round tip characteristic for these swords. A typical pike formations first several ranks were composed of the most heavily armored men. Their armor of the period had "fluting" and embossed roping and all armor had stop ribs at the edge of the plate. Pointed weapons were directed along these flutes and ropes to be captured at the edge. In the melee following push of pike and "Bad War" was the order of the day, these short swords were drawn one-handed (there is artistic evidence of tied down scabbards) and in uppercut fashion, the rounded point would follow the flutes but Jump OVER the stop rib and find its mark under the chin strap, brachial artery or femoral. Further artistic evidence of corpses depict scalp wounds, defensive cuts to the forearms and slashes to the thighs. Thanks for listening to my thought.

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For a brief time in an earlier century, and to return are the Oakeshott type XIII-XIIIa sword blades with spatulate tips, some more pointy than others (as with the Katzbalger). In the earlier heyday of the XIII forms, perhaps to not get their points trapped in mail and then in advances of armor, more of the torso covered with plate. The XIVth and XVth centuries having quite pointy swords to seek out crevices, then armour becoming much open again after the advent of firearms. One might forget that the armies were fought in sections, with pike protecting musket. Cavalry and doopelsoldner/landsknecht breaking up the opposing squares. The shorter swords backup weapons to their pike or musket.

In other, often later tactic you have the rodeleros/espadachines in some countries acting more independently to break up the "push of the pike" with rodel/shield and pointy sidesword (a trend that lasted about a century).

Cheers

GC

 

[kaotikross]

As usual, Horseclover, that was both enlightening and informative. You're right, if I were present for that and my side were losing, I'd be outta there.