Keen Kutter and Shapleigh finds

[singin50]

Looks like the curved marking on the Shapleigh stamp is most likely 1920 to 1960 from Goins' Beautiful knives!

 

[Herb Walsh]

Thanks again for all the nice feedback on my knives; it is appreciated. If it is permissible; could I ask the members what is the value of these knives? Thanks. hw

 

[ptradeco]

When researching the Shapleigh and Simmons Hardware Companies, especially Diamond Edge and Keen Kutter, it is literally diving into the looking glass. Only hardware companies I have ever heard of that have societies and clubs dedicated to only a single brand. We have a number of such in St.Louis. They actually get excited about the nuances between a dozen or so axes that for all the world look identical to me! Quite a history of those two companies if you have the inclination and time to go down the rabbit hole.

 

[Codger_64]

Thanks again for all the nice feedback on my knives; it is appreciated. If it is permissible; could I ask the members what is the value of these knives? Thanks. hw

No, it is not permissible to inquire about values without a slight membership upgrade, less than the cost of most knives. Less than a book or two magazines. :thumbup:

 

[Peregrin]

Thanks again for all the nice feedback on my knives; it is appreciated. If it is permissible; could I ask the members what is the value of these knives? Thanks. hw

Here's the answer to your question. This is taken from the guidelines that are stickied at the top of the main page. Good reading for every poster!

Per the rules of the exchange and in furtherance of curtailing potential abuse of membership privileges associated with the forums, questions regarding valuation of knives and collections are limited to those with a membership level which permits selling on this site. Accordingly, registered and basic members may not start or post in threads with such requests whether with the intent to sell or for informational purposes only. Even with that caveat, the Traditional forum is probably not the proper venue for such questions and such threads may be moved to a more appropriate area of the site.

No harm no foul. You just gave me an opening to reinforce one of the guidelines.

 

[Codger_64]

Keen Kutter knives? Paaaatooooie! No, many of the Keen Kutter knives were SFOs from cutleries. I know, Shapliegh liked to pass themselves off as a cutlery among other things, but they were mostly a jobber. And close comparison of many of their knives will show who the actual maker of KK knives was. Same for Belknap and other jobbers. Here is a Keen Kutter 100th anniversary knife you may not have seen before. I've not seen many and I failed in my attempt to buy this one. It may have gone to a Keen Kutter tool collector rather than to a knife collector. So, here are the pictures I nabbed.

Pretty obvious what it is. Schrade Walden began production of the 897UH pattern in late 1966, appearing in the catalog first in 1967. Standard on the early knives was milled brass liners and a serial number stamped inside. Of course the familiar Uncle Henry Baer signature shield has been replaced with a commemorative stamping. Produced in late 1968/early 1969, this is one of the first special factory commemorative orders for this pattern.

ETA: Found the paperwork for this knife elsewhere on line:

 

[MerryMadMonk]

Some key dates that apply to Keen Kutter knives:

(sources, except where otherwise noted: Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, 4th Edition and Pocket-Knives ... both authored by Bernard Levine)

1902 - E.C. Simmons Hardware buys Walden Knife Company
1904 - Keen Kutter "wedge and bar" logo was adapted (source: The Hardware Companies Kollectors Klub or THCKK)
1921 - E.C. Simmons dies at age 82
1922 - E.C. Simmons Hardware merges with Winchester Repeating Arms Company
1923 - Walden Knife Company is liquidated and its equipment and staff moves to the Winchester plant in New Haven, CT
1930 - E.C. Simmons Hardware and Winchester go their separate ways
1940 - E.C. Simmons Hardware is acquired by its major competitor and St. Louis neighbor, Shapleigh Hardware
1960 - Shapleigh Hardware closes

--------------------------

So from about 1904 to about 1922, Keen Kutters were made by Walden Knife Company and from 1923 to about 1930 Keen Kutters were made at the Winchester plant (which used Walden's equipment and employed former Walden workers among others). From 1930 to 1940, I think Schrade Cutlery Company made Keen Kutters for E.C. Simmons (I'm going by patterns in Schrade catalogs of the period), but I'm not sure if Schrade was the sole contractor. I don't know who made the Keen Kutter for Shapleigh from 1940 to 1960, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Schrade was in the mix.

 

[jon_slider]

Here is a Keen Kutter I let get away for someone else to enjoy. The sunken joints look like Camillus to me, as does the clip blade swedge being only on the mark side, but the handle pin position looks Schrade. Strikes me as weird that the pin by the bolster looks brass, and the other two pins look steel. Any guess on what year it might have been made, pre or post Baer? Ive read elsewhere that Baer made Keen Kutter in Camillus after WW2. Several companies stopped using 3 pins on bone handles in the 50's, when they went to synthetic covers. I hope the OP does not mind the hijack.. fantastic finds, especially that teardrop!

 

[Codger_64]

Baer's Ulster, purchased in the winter of '39-'40, bought out the Schrade family in 1946 and began producing the patterns under the Schrade Walden name. And also continued producing under the Ulster name. Another date of note, that of the movement of Norvell from the E.C. Simmons company to Shapliegh in 1902. He left that company circa 1918 and the name reverted from Norvell Shapliegh to Shapleigh.

1910 postcard, N-S HQ, St. Louis, Mo.

 

[Gevonovich]

Norvell-Shapleigh HDW Co. St. L. MO. DE

Keen Kutter (Walden?)

Walden Knife Co.

 

[Herb Walsh]

I apologize for violating forum rules when I asked about values. I could have taken the time to read the rules; but didn't. Sorry. Thanks again for the additional posts and information. And I enjoyed viewing the other KK knives presented! Regards, hw

 

[jon_slider]

Keen Kutter (Walden?)

Great stuff
could we see a bit more, any tang marks..

heres my latest collection of Keen Kutter google Fu, that may help date your Barlow

here is a keen cutter model K2881 I would guess its Camillus made due to the pin placement. Yours looks older, steel pins different pin position, more centered middle pin. But if you can see a number or tang stamps we might know a bit more..

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Keen-Kutter-model-info?highlight=Keen+Kutter

A 3 digit pattern number would be a Shapleigh pattern. 1940 ff.

A K+ 4 digits pattern number is a Simmons-Winchester number. 1920 ff.

BRL...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/196654-Keen-Kutter-question?highlight=Keen+Kutter

I'm not certain about this, but as I recall -- when Shapleigh acquired the Keen Kutter brand, in 1940, the Keen Kutter knives that were made for them were not marked with pattern numbers. And the secondary blades were not marked at all. These were made until 1960, mainly by Camillus.

BRL...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/485093-Keen-Kutter?highlight=Keen+Kutter

Most of you know that Keen Kutter brand was originaly owened by the Simmons Hardware Co and they started using the name in 1866.
Here is a little history. Its almost as twisted as Schrade.
Simmons 1st used the KK name on axes then on other edged tools. Simmons Hardware became E.C.Simmons & CO. Pocket knives were 1st cataloged in 1880. About 1874 Simmons was buying their knives from Walden knife and in 1902 bought the company and all KK"s were made by Walden untill 1922 when Winchester bought Simmons and Winchester moved the buisness to their plant in Conn till 1929 when Simmons seperated from Winchester. Walden Knife closed in 1924. Simmons was bought in 1940 by Shapleigh and was selliing KK's in 1959 when they closed selling the trademark to Val-Test in 1960.
Now whom made the kk's from 1929-1960 ?
Simmons/Shapleigh like Sears, contracted everything. KK's name was attached to many products in fact there is a huge conterfet maket for KK things like wall plates, posters and such other trinkets. I just found a web site just full of reproduction and fake alerts
http://www.thckk.org/fakes-page.html

Schrade and Camillus were both selling knives to Shapleigh.

I believe I read someplace that, even though the mariage was over, Winchester continued to make the knives for Simmons up until 1940 on the original Walden Knife Co. equipment, which had been moved to Connecticut after the merger. Shapleigh had the Diamond Edge brand of knives made by a more diverse group of cutleries, such as Schrade, Camillus, and Boker (Although Camillus did some work for Simmons also), so I don't think Schrades really came into the Keen Kutter picture until around 1940.

Eric

 

[Gevonovich]

Jon, there is literally not much left of the Barlow. The blade is held up with a pop stick and the secondary blade is broken. I looked at it again under higher magnification and ...nothing. It was in a box of rusted knives at my favorite antique shop, rusted shut. I still love it as it was my first Barlow. I even carry sometimes as its usable and tight and deserves to be carried.

I thank you for all your work. That kind of effort/good will is what makes this sub-forum so great!! Thanks again, Jon.

Here are the pics you requested.

 

[jon_slider]

Thanks Gevonovich
Your Keen Kutter is different from any other Ive seen. The steel pins, the rounded shape of both bolster and handle, and what appears to be a shorter tang, say you may have the oldest one Ive seen. Nothing about it suggests Camillus, nor Schrade. I see no reason to doubt it could be from the Walden era.

Thanks for sharing your beautiful old finds.

 

[Gevonovich]

It was fun to get it out, Jon. Made me feel like it was the first day of collecting all over again

Its in my pocket today!

 

[Gevonovich]

Jon, I was just out front whittling in the sun ( making some Vit. D ) and noticed that this Barlow has two springs on the master blade and one on the secondary...interesting.

 

[jon_slider]

this Barlow has two springs on the master blade and one on the secondary...interesting.

Very interesting! picture is not showing up

fwiw, here is an Ulster originally posted by Waynorth, note the sunken joints

note the similarity in sunken joints and centered middle handle pin to this Shapleigh, 1940 or later. Based on the mismatched handle pins, steel and brass, I believe this knife has been modified, so I dont know that the blade set is original to the handle and bolster. I believe, from reading Codger_64 that Baer owned Ulster by then. Shapleigh was also contracting with Schrade at that time… Baer did not buy Schrade til 1946 if I have my facts right. One fact I dont have yet, is whether Schrade or Ulster used swedges only on the Mark side, which is how this Keen Kutter is set up. I also dont have a Schrade pic from that era, to see if they had sunken joints too..

 

[Gevonovich]

I think most if not all Ulster Barlows only have a swedge on the Mark side. The Schrade Cut Barlow I have has them on both sides. Utica only on the Mark side of my old one.

Here is the twin spring shots on the old Keen Kutter Barlow

The first picture is out of focus. Note the pop stick used to prop up the Master blade.

 

[jon_slider]

I think most if not all Ulster Barlows only have a swedge on the Mark side. The Schrade Cut Barlow I have has them on both sides.

then the Shapleigh KK could be Ulster but not Schrade... hmmm

Here is the twin spring shots on the old Keen Kutter Barlow

Those spring shots are soooo unique! and so cool! Thanks I note the pen spring is same thickness as the doubled Primary blade springs. Most Barlows I see use thinner stock for the pen than the primary. You have a VERY unique KK. Love your photos..

note the thinner pen than primary, and primary swedge only on Mark side of this Shapleigh 1940+ Keen Kutter

 

[Gevonovich]

You're very welcome, Jon! I have to say thank you for the fun and the information! You are reigniting my Barlow flame