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Knife Defense for Dummies

Don: Yes, police respond to calls, but there are other reasons as you are undoubtedly aware. In any case, as I stated above, I DO believe that knives are formidable weapons and have a valid role in CQC. I also agree that this belongs in one of the "tactical" forums. JRF.



[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 01-04-2001).]
 
Excellent thread. I have nothing to add.I agree with most of you though. Especially Don and Steve. Thanks guys.

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Brian
What is this existential quandry all about anyway?
 
Sheesh -- I saw this thread before it got any replies and I was thinking ... you won't get any replies to that, Harv, it's too sensible.
smile.gif
Evidently sensible posts can get replies too.

I feel a bit inhibited discussing tactics in this forum, but the discussion is rational so far ... maybe we can keep it this way. As long as we're here, there are a couple of points Not2sharp made that seem a bit opaque to me....

Originally posted by not2sharp:
Fact 1:
If you find your self in a situation where a knife or gun is required then you have already committed a critical mistake, and there are no two ways about it; it will cost you, so relax and pay up. You are not there to right a wrong, set an example, or vindicate the innocent. You are there because you $crewed-up...admit it and work on minimizing the costs.

I can't imagine where you got that fact from ... not one of the situations in which
I've found weapons useful were preceded by any mistake on my part that I am aware of. I can say the same for most of the situations my students have been involved in. As far as I know predators are not limited to attacking people who have made some sort of mistake ... if they are I wish you would inform them of it....

Fact 2:
If you are forced to use your gun or knife then you loose. Even if you survive the fight you will loose financially, and legally, socially, and possibly physically.

This time I do know where you got the "fact" -- from certain elements of the media who have made their careers out of warning people about the "inevitable" horrible legal consequences of self-defense. There is a kernel of factual injustices behind all that hype ... but believe it or not, the great majority of people who defend themselves do not lose a thing by it, not financially, not legally, not socially, and certainly not physically.

-Cougar :{)
Click to expand...
 
You know this topic will always in some form and in some forum come up whether it be from novice or experienced. Like someone once said, "At one point, it's not about good or bad. It's what are you going to do."
 
Well put Steve, and I agree with you.
As others have said, this topic has appeared many times on this forum, and it seems to get people really lathered up. Hopefully we can avoid that this time. I sure hope so. Some of the comments previously made were quite hurtful, and I don't think really served a purpose. I do hope you have not opened another can of worms.
 
Cougar,

Regarding my comments above:

Your best defense is to stay alert and avoid the problem before it becomes a problem. If you failed to stay alert and suddenly find yourself surrounded by a bunch of hoods - well guess what... Predators do what predators do, just make sure you avoid becoming easy prey. Once you loose the initiative its very hard to get it back.

As for the second thought. No I did not get it from the liberal media. I just not quite naive enough to think you can kill someone in self defense and walk off for a brew. The official investigation, the inevitable lawsuit from the relatives, the funny looks from neighbors, family, employers, and friends are going to cost far more than the watch and pocket change the SOB was going to hit you for. We should put things in perspective before we do something dumb.

I am neither a pacifist nor apathetic; but as a pragmatist I intend to yield for as long as the other guy has the initiative. Its funny how many guys I come across that seem to have their strategy down pact. No problem they say. If the other guy pulls a gun (or knife) on me I get my gun and shoot him. How do you impress on these folks that, if the other guy has a gun or knife drawn on them, they will be full of holes long before they can deploy their weapon.

Think before you act. That's how you avoid becoming a statistic.


 
The wife and I were watching one of those Fox TV "Caught on Tape" shows one night. This guy was running a jewelery store. Guy comes in and starts acting suspiciously. The store owner kept his distance and watched. The "customer" then pulled a pistola and wheeled around. The store owner was ready, and pulled his own. Store owner neglected to realize that his safety was on, and he lost the gunfight. He lived thru the ordeal by some trick of fate and poor shooting by his assailant.

I turn to the wife and says: "If ol' Storeowner there would have pulled a knife, he'd have won that little exchange." She agreed.

Good points all around. I carry a knife because it is good for cutting stuff. I practice martial arts as well, and we train for Unarmed VS Knife quite often. Don Rearic made a good statement when he said that you are not fighting a knife, you are fighting a person. We train to disable the body part holding the knife. All that training aside, my first plan of action is to flee from a knife encounter; way too formidable a weapon in the hands of an unknown opponent.

What is my point here? Just the fact that almost everybody here so far has a valid point. Defensive options abound in todays world. The knife is right up there with the best of 'em. But the situation will dictate which is best, IMHO.

One more point I want to agree with: Move this thread over to the tactical forums.
 
Wow! Had to read this one twice. A 'lucid' discussion of knives used in and for defensive purposes. Great post and great responses.

Just another post on 'why' one should practice these scenarios mentioned with their weapon of choice whether that be gun, knife or body weaponry...

In Hock Hocheim's Knife Fighting Encyclopedias he describes what results from 'muscle memory'. His story involves a new rookie Police Officer who, after many drills regarding gun disarms where they immediately 'hand' the gun back to their training partner, after successfully disarming a BG immediately handed him the gun back who then in response to his politeness shot him immediately. This was one reason the drills were changed so that handing over the gun immediately was discontinued.

Your initial instincts are driven by muscle memory and they can be either negatively or positively enhanced by 'practice'.

Just an interesting aside which will make ya think twice the next time somebody asks for your knife and you automatically whip it out and hand 'er over...
wink.gif


Shawn
 
Well let's see, I bet the late Ron Goldman wished he would have had something more than fingernails
frown.gif
Even if he his life was still forfeited in the ensuing fight, the perp. would have had a much harder time getting off in court. If he had some major puncture wound or a nasty slash from say a serrated Endura, "I broke a glass in the sink and cut my finger",
rolleyes.gif
just wouldn't do.
I also doubt that in such a scenario he gave much of a fig about the legal system, public opinion,his employer etc. His screw-up was being friends with someone who had a jealous pyscho of an ex-husband.
mad.gif

I read in the paper a few years ago about a man who was assulted on the bad side of town, near Norte Dame. He sucessfully defended himself with a knife, cut the Femoral artorary in the skel's leg, killing him. It was judged self-defense and he was cleared, it probably did not hurt his case that the skel was wanted in MI for rape.

[This message has been edited by Weapon_X_711 (edited 01-03-2001).]
 
Well, I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes here, but I wanted to bring up one other point regarding this discussion.

There are some of us who, either because of the state we live in, or even where we work, are not allowed to carry guns.

We have concealed carry permits here in Arkansas, but the company I work for does not allow guns on the premisis. As a matter of fact you can be fired if they even catch you with one in your car!

Well, no problem there, I carry my Delica in my front pocket and my Endura in the waistband. From all of the time I spend whipping out one or the other to cut boxes around the store, I know I can get either one into action quicker than I can draw my Glock from an IWB holster!
wink.gif


Anyway, again not wanting to step on toes....just wanted to bring that up.

Flinx
 
Harv and Don,

Very lucid posts that I'm sure were born out of all of the recent crap that surrounded JAK. Thanks for making your points so clearly from the heart.
Don, I personally believe that general is the best place for this type of discussion. The more light that shines on this topic the better. The trolls usually disappear and the rest of us get the benefit of passioned responses such as your's and Steve's.

Jim McCullough

------------------


Next time you feel your life is sooo tough, read this- Some American Heroes
 
Well Don, I figure I'd get at least one response that felt the need to point out how inneffectual my martial arts skills would be in a real world situation. This, of course, after I clearly stated that my skills are very limited. Thanks for the use of quotation marks around "martial arts"- you are obviously far and away above the people who spend their lives dedicated to these diciplines

Let me try again. Despite what your own preconceived platitudes might allow you to believe, my limited knife defense training is VERY realistic. There is nothing staged about it. One thing I've learned: in unarmed defense against a knife, you WILL get cut. Also it would be a terrifying, probably painful, and quite possibly fatal ordeal.

That said, there is still no doubt that having one hand occupied with a knife would be a huge dissadvantage TO ME. NOT YOU. ME. Any of my limited experience and training would be hugely handicapped by having to weild a knife. This is only because I don't know what the heck I'm doing with a knife.

It's funny how so many people realise how stupid the "don't take a knife to a gunfight" thing is, but will feel all puffed out saying, "Let's see you block a bullet" to a martial artist. Of course training/knives/guns have limitations. It takes a wise one to realise these limitations. We can only prepare the best we can and use the tools available and bes tsuited to each of us.
 
Kumdo,

I think you took offense where no offense, insult or slight was intended.

There are many different methods and movements with which you can immediately remove "grabbing hands."

While I was meaning to shed some light on certain areas and "Martial Arts" that are featured in Magazines like Black Belt, it was not an attack on you per se.

I am certainly guilty of not clarifying, and I regret that, you have my apologies.

There are so many people in McDojo's teaching "knife defense." They will get their Students killed in the street. Alot of these "knife defenses" are based on many dangerous myths such as paralyzed off hands, no low line kicking, no spitting, no second weapon and no specific methods for removing people's hands from me when they are trying to disarm me.

Sometimes what I say is unpopular even to people in the blade arts actually.

I am a firm believer in the following, even if you are very skilled, possibly even in an art that deals with edged weapons, and someone has a knife and you have no weapon...you are still at a disadvantage.

That, is what I was attempting to convey.

Now, alot of popular knife disarms will work if the attacker is simply threatening you with a knife and is not actively attacking you. Same with a firearm disarm. Once the knife is in motion, it is a very bad situation to be in.

There is another Rule of this Deadly thing we are discussing.

The firearm needs to remain somewhat stable to be effective, the knife is the opposite.

So, what I wrote was not intended to be a blanket indictment of you or all people involved in "martial arts," nor was putting the words martial arts in quotation an insult. Just merely to point out that alot of martial arts are not very martial.

Martial Arts, as far as I am concerned, are arts suitable for war. That means weapons are utilized. Not just improvised weapons which are an important part of anyone's "TrickBag," but actual weapons.

Hope this cleared things up, sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
I believe that the knife is a good weapon for self defense,however the 21 foot rule is not a good example of this.The 21 foot rule shows that action beats reaction ,its basically used to show a cop that if he unexpetedly comes upon a man with a knife theres no time to draw a gun at close range.It always starts with the knife in the knife guys hand while the gun guy starts with the gun in his hoslter.Now to make this fit the example of defending with a knife against gun we have to reverse this,the knife guy has to start with his knife in a pocket or sheith while the gun guy starts with his gun out.I don't think many of us walk around with our knives in our hands all the time do we? and the bad guy who is atacking us won't start with his gun in his pocket or holster.

[This message has been edited by Lone Hunter (edited 01-04-2001).]
 
To All:
For the year of 1998 (the most recent year for which the statistics are fully available), as per the Uniform Crime Report prepared by the Dept. of Justice there were 24,000+/- firearms related homicides in the U.S. There were also 18,000+/- edged weapons related homicides in th U.S.

------------------
Stickfighter2
"I Used To Be Disgusted But Now I'm Just Amused"

"The More Corrupt The State, The More Numerous The Laws"

Publius Cornelius Tacitus
Histories III c.110 A.D.
 
The zone is much misunderstood ... 21 feet (6 meters) is an arbitrary figure, of course; it isn't even an average. The most common demonstration shown to police recruits starts with the gun holstered and the demonstrator 21 feet away, and the demonstrator is the one to make the first move -- there are large numbers of martial artists who can beat an entire class of recruits under those conditions, so that demonstration isn't difficult to arrange -- but some of us can do it with other starting conditions, too....

When people first hear about the zone they tend to go off on side issues ... I'm so fast with a gun I don't have to worry about it ... what if the guy with the gun has already drawn ... the average cop barely knows which end the bullet comes out of ... etc. Relative abilities of individual opponents only change the size of the zone; they don't ever make it go away. Whether you're fast or slow, whether the other guy is any good or not, whether one or both of you have already drawn or not, your problem is always the same: which can you do faster, draw or close?

Within the zone a gun has no advantage over a knife in skilled hands and has a disadvantage if your opponent can get his hand on it. Most gunfights occur within the zone. It's easy to imagine the difficulties you would face if someone suddenly started shooting at you from fifty feet away, but in real life that seldom happens -- gunfights begin with a conversation: he comes up to a conversational range and says something to you first and then draws his gun (or tries to).

I carry both, of course; most of us who can do that legally do. There are a number of threads in the tactical forums here going into more detail if anybody's interested.

Often when people who don't train talk about these issues they speak with volume and arrogance in inverse proportion to their knowledge, and the most ignorant are the most absolute in their statements -- absolute statements like you WILL get cut, the INEVITABLE lawsuit, NEVER bring a knife to a gunfight, knife-fighting experts ALWAYS or NEVER use reverse grip. Those of us who know what we're talking about don't say those things, and we seldom phrase anything in absolute terms like that. There are few such absolute truths in the real world.

-Cougar :{)
 
Please folks, don't even start on scenarios here. I only wanted to point out the folly of over anal-yzing the situation, so lets not be guilty of anal-yzing it more.

I just wanted to point out to whoever might be not thinking too clearly about the matter that very few people pack a gun every day, and that a knife can offer a tactical advantage over no weapon under some circumstances. It is a very grey subject, and that's about as fine a point as anyone is likely to prove in regard to it.
 
JRF:

Just a clarification. The firearm did not outdate the Bowie knife because it was a better weapon. The Bowie knife was banned (specifically named in most laws) because it was a more deadly weapon, and injuring or killing someone even in self-defense with one was considered an automatic felony offense.

References: BOWIE KNIFE by Raymond Thorpe; BOWIES, BIG KNIVES, AND THE BEST OF BATTLE BLADES by Bill Bagwell (who probably got his data from Thorpe).

-Travis
 
Don, I think we're basically on the same page. I totally agree that the victom of a knife weilding attack is at a disadvantage- of course they are. But again, I would feel better equipped to deal with the situation with both hands available (however noneffective they might be).

I aggree that when people train with specialised knife defense techniques, they often feel a false sense of confidence. I know some of these techniques, but when training against realistic attacks, it is nearly impossible to actually use them.

Furthermore, I believe that a hard hand or foot smashing technique to a vital area will have a more dramatic and immediate effect on an attacker, as apposed to a knife slash or stab. In other words, if some big dude is coming hard at me, I believe that any of my folding knives are not going to have an IMMDEDIATE stopping effect. Sure they may be bleeding badly, but they probably are going to still hit me hard. In theory, breaking a kneecap, smashing a nose or a solid shot to the gonads would have a more immediate (if not more serious) effect. Mearly knocking down your assailant for a moment to facilitate an escape could be more effective than making a nasty slash in their face or whatever. This might only serve to enrage him.

 
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