Knife World Article on Camp Knives

If it was me I would contact the maker if possible. I would be curious if the knife was supposed to be that way, as some people do actually prefer fairly dull edges for chopping knives. If this wasn't the case I would ask about how they sharpen so as to best duplicate the NIB edge regards to grit levels. If they offered to resharpen it I would include that in the review as well if possible (it can be complicated outside the country).

A test knife was not performing well at all would you discontine the testing of that particular knife or put it down in the middle of the test.
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I am not sure what you are asking here. If a knife was not performing well, then I don't think I would keep at it in the hopes that it would magically improve.

Of course with handle ergonomics some issues can be dealth with with extended use (days to weeks) - however for most magazine review this might not be a always possible considering time frames.

Plus as well the arguement could be made that not everyone would want or even be interested in having to adapt to a handle by having to toughen the grip, or increase strength especially when you can just find a more suitable knife.

Now if you pick up a knife and it performs very badly at some test, you should try it at others that are different. Generally I would try the opposite sort of thing to show where it did work.

However if you were testing the suitability for a type of task this isn't sensible. For example if the review was of fillet knives and one was heavy and stiff and made a poor fillet knife, I don't think it would be sensible to critize the writer for not testing it as a chopper / prybar.

If it was advertized as a heavy camp knife and could not for example chop at all without taking severe damage, I could also see a reviewer not wanting to waste time by using it in other areas since it so badly failed one of the required tests.

-Cliff
 
Thanks Cliff, there is nothing in your posts here that I disagree with when it comes to an unbiased test. I would have in fact weighted your thoughts more valid on contacting the maker or not over a dull edge as the thoughts of someone with expertise in testing over my thoughts as as an observer.

(but we seem to agree on that too.)

As far as the other question.

The reviwer put the knife down and did not finish testing it, due to his thoughts on poor performance and discomfort of the handle.
 
Hello everybody
First, i want to apologize for my poor english, but i hope to be understood.
I'am a french writer for many years, and editor of the french magazine : La Passion des Couteaux (a pretty nice one !), for two years.
Dominique Beaucant is an old friend of mine, and i can testifiy to his honnesty, and to his passion for the knives. What he knows about knives, he learnt from Mister "Bo" Randall, and from Mister William "Bill" Moran !!! (goor references indeed !)
He was a good Bo's friend, and still a good Bill's one. And i suppose that it's not easy to abuse such men, very much in demand.
If you want to see Dominique happy : give him a good campknife for testing, and if you want to built a log cabin, let it do him, for sure, he is going to do that for you, if the knife is good enough !
When i received his article, i first translated it, and i thought : "Gee !!! We are going to receive a bunch of emails if we publish it !!! And i published it !!!
But, of course, in France, things are different, because all these knifemakers are probably not so famous as in the US. But anyway, i know that some of them have received orders after we published the article.
Dominique ask one knife to the knifemakers, only one. He explained what kind of test he was going to make with it.
Read the article again : he never talk about the good or bad quality of the knifemaker, but he only talk about the knife that he has on his hand.
But probably, did you excpect for an article called : "everybody is wonderful, every knifemakers are great, every knives were so huge !
I am sure that Big John is a great knifemaker, his master Smith stamp, is for me the proof that he is. But i believe Dominique, and i know that John was probably in a hurry, and THIS knife was probably not perfect. In my translation, i decided to explain, and temperate Dominique's purpose. In the same article, he test also a Jerry Fisk 's campknife, i decided to print this test in a further article... Dominique said that it was probably the best knife that he used ! And in other articles (Blade magazine, and Knives illustrated),he let you discover the wonderful brazilian knifemakers... In a further one, he is going to talk about extraordinary Shiva Ki knives... And i ask him to go on with this kind of testing article. Our readers like that !
There is a fact that actually, knives prices are considerably increasing, and i guess that the knifemakers have to justify their prices : 1500 $ is a price, no ? For this price, i am excpecting for something perfect, indeed. I guess that it was what Dominique was thinking about when he wrote his article. In the same week, he (and his friends) have tested a big Marbles Campknife ("trailmaker")... Their conclusion was that this 225 $ knife was better than some custom once ! Out of the box, he cut the rope many times, shave, cut a big bunch of 2 x 4 and green wood ... in the same test, they did the same with a Cold Steel Trail master... If one of these factory knves had been dull, we would write it ! That is a fact !
I am sorry for the John Fitch fan club, I appreciate the guy and his knives, i have seen him at the Blade show cutting Competition, and he was really impressive, but this day, Jim Crowell was better than him ! It'as also a fact !
The fact that the knife tested by Dominique and his friend was not perfect, is not a personal attack against the knifemaker and his work ... THIS knife was not perfect, that's all, he probably needed to be re-sharpen ... But the other knives were tested in the same conditions, and they probably were better.
As John was not the best one, but Jim was, at the Blade show Competition.
The french soccer team was not the best one at the last World championship ! OK ? And if someone, wrote that "we" still are the best ... For sure, i'm not going to agree with him, even if i would like it. Big John has made, is still making, and will make exceptional knives, but probably, the one that he sent to Dominique was not a top knife ! The problem of the press is sometime :
"write or not write... Say or not say .... That is the question !" And even if we do not write what you were excpecting... We give you an opportunity to talk about knives, and to give your opinion... The day where we will write : "Mister X makes good knives, because Mister X has pay for an advertising in my magazine "... This day, Guys, stop reading and buying, the knives magazines !

Again : Sorry for my poor english !!!
I will be back on this very interesting forum
 
Thanks for dropping in FX!

It is a pleasure to have you here and also to hear more background of the story. As far as the translation. Don't even concern yourself. I wish I had as good of a grasp of a second language as you do with English. :D.
 
Hello, guys

Gus
I have never used a Fitch blade but from all I heard about then and from what I can understand in this thread, it was a problem with a single one, not with the maker. I have talked to Dominique more than once and he has visited me last December and can assure you he is very serious about what he writes. I have not read the KW article, though, to comment on Dominique's tone.
On a second note, thanks for treating so well my friends at the Blade Show!

François
It is nice to see you on the forums. I hope you show up at this year's SPKS! Serious testing is the basis for the credibility of the magazine and I woudn't advocate twisting the test to suit one knife's characteristics,otherwise it would surely damage the magazine's reputation, but have to agree with Cliff that maybe the maker should have been contacted and this noted in the article, as well as if the knife had been sent for resharpening since in case its original sharpening was defective, that would be fair and maybe the maker would learn to be more carefull before he sends his knives out if that was the case, a good advice for any maker, anyway, though nobody is perfect.
It is too bad that I can't find your magazine over here since it is the prettiest knife magazine I have ever seen (though it takes me one hour to read a page in French, what is quite unfair since all you French guys seem to speak Portuguese very well!)
 
Thanks Bastid, it's good for a french to be welcome in a US forum !!!;)


Hello Ivan, todo boa meu amigo do Brazil !

Please, tell us more about the Sao Paulo Knife Show . Do you know already the date.
Guys, do you know that there are super knifemakers in Brasil ? After the first half day at the Bladeshow, all the (big) knives that the "famous 3" bought, had been sold out !

:D
 
Hey all,

Were there any pictures of the Fitch knife that was tested in the article, or did they mention what test they were running when they decided it was too uncomfortable to continue? I did some chopping with my blade and the only time I found it to be somewhat uncomfortable was when I pressed the tip into some wood and my hand was forced against the guard. My knife is a specialized chopper though and I found the handle to be very comfortable taking full swings. Maybe John used a different handle design on the knife that was tested?

-Jose
 
I finally got to read the article and all I can say is, he might be Cninese. From looking at the picture of the 3 knives that John sent him to use, there isn't a 1/4" difference in the length of the handles (in comparing the photos of all three). I would like to use them myself for the rope and other cutting chores that he had set up to test them on.
The $1500.00 camp knife was about a 7 1/2" ladder pattern damascus bowie with fileworked guard and ferrule, sambar stag handle and scalloped nickel silver buttcap. The handle appeared to be as long as the large camp knife in the same picture. Not your every day camp knife but well within a reasonable price range for the blade.
I do have a hard time understanding why the knives were "all dull" and none would cut the rope. This is 3 knives, not one, that he seemed to have trouble with. At least Cliff Stamp gives you the benefit of a doubt on shapening and does know how to sharpen if it needs it. That is something else that bothers me, every body I know that does or uses knives, has something to touch up the edge with. After reading the article, I guess it was beat up on John Fitch's knives day.
I don't usually rant about something but this article does seem to follow the usual agenda of being PC. Got to beat up on one of them to make the rest look like it is for real.
Terry Primos does also make a good knife and am glad to see him get some exposure.
 
Hello All,
Speaking from the dual perspective of one of the guys who knife was reviewed, and also one who's been beaten by Big John in more than a few cutting competitions, I found Dominique's article to be fair.

Maybe his "tone" offended some of you.
Maybe you read more into his "tone" than he intended...

If everyone's knives had lived up to Dominique's expectations he would have been more complimentary.

Granted, from the article it's pretty fair to assume he had high expectations and was anticipating testing extremely sharp knives WITH BIG HANDLES.
He did a fair amount of ragging on my handle shape too.

If I had any sense I would have gone back and reviewed the two articles he wrote in Knives Illustrated back in 97.
Part One, October 97 - Custom Camp Knives, Putting big blades to the ultimate test. "World's toughest evaluation" that editor said...
Part Two, December 97 - Custom Camp Knives, part two - "Torture test finals" the editor called it...

Maybe I would have put a big old hogging handle on the camp knife I sent him.
Truth is, I've used my knives to chop the **** out of all kinds of wood from fresh cut softwoods to dried out Oak and Bois de Arc, (Bodark or Osage Orange) all day long.
I've never gotten a blister on my little finger and these days I'm practically a white collar office boy.

We all know John makes a sharp knife.
John has been kind enough to demonstrate to me his sharpening technique and walked me through resharpening one of my knives the night before a cutting competition.
(He still kicked my butt...)
There wasn't any rag on Big John agenda.
The knives Dominique tested just weren't as sharp as he expected them to be.
Hey, go back and read those KI articles.
Dominique drags some fine makers through the coals in those too, and has told me that Bud Lang did a fair amount of rewriting to tone those articles down.

I'll take his criticism with a grain of salt and keep on making my knives to suit myself.
I appreciated the publicity.

One more thought (and I'll shut up); no one has any business ragging Mark Zalesky or Knife World for running the article either.
Mark knew it would raise a few eyebrows but after careful consideration and review of the testing videotape Dominique sent him he decided to run it. Good for him.

Keep making sharp knives...

Judson Barr aka: Redivider
Journeyman Bladesmith
 
I have the issue of Knife World in question and I read the camp knife review. The reviewer was pretty harsh in his assesment of John Fitch's knife, but at least we can't accuse him of a being a kiss-up reviewer that is afraid of making a cutler mad. We can't have it both ways, we can't get angry at reviewers for ripping a knife and then complain about knife reviews not being critical enough. If Knife World is willing to criticize a hot, young mastersmith, I will be even more willing to trust them when they say that they do like a particular knife.
 
Hi Judson,
Your post is probably the most intelligent one, about this article.
Some posters sayed they had not ridden the article... I guess that the better would have been to read first... and speak about after.
I can understand that kind of reaction : "Don't touch my knifemaker !!!" ... I don't thik that you are expceting for a magazine only written by knifemakers, talking about their own knives.
But be happy, guys, Dominique is going to pay the price, for sure... My little finger told me that he is no longer "welcome" in the Knife World pages. And Gee, i do hope that he is going to have more time now and my magazine will receive more articles of this excellent writer !!! And why not : in the future, we are going to print an english version of it.
I will try to translate this Beaumarchais 's sentence :
"Without the freedom of blaming, there is no flattering praise "
 
It is great to see that there will be an English language version of your magazine, Francois. It is a fine magazine and will be very welcome indeed. Just make sure it available over here, please.
 
Yes, when it does come out in a english version I would love to have a subscription. That magazine has traditional been one of the best in the world. You are doing a very good job with it.
jf
 
Thank you guys !!!

It's a plan, but as you can assume, work tha american market is not an easy thin to do.
Jerry, you will be in my next issue of October (Albany Hammer-in and Blade show), and Dominique wrote excellent things about your campknife.
I project coming to the Hendrickson/Moran Hammer-in, with friends.
In our next issue, the will be also an article about Joe (Keeslar), who is actually in France, and a very good ambassador for the ABS... And an other article about Dan Winkler.
 
Francois,
I'd also be interested in getting a copy of the issue that I was in. Is that something that we can do? I didn't even know I was in the thing until someone here at the forums told me about it.

It doesn't matter to me that I can't read French. I can still enjoy the pretty pictures. :D
 
Just a few quick things (I can't comment on the article).

Judson is right, I remember reading the reviews back in '97 and being surprised at the results...but the guy was honest with how HE felt. While I was pretty shocked, it didn't change how he felt personally in his review. I've had people tell me flat-out to my face that they don't like my knives...it's hard to swallow, but like they say, you can't plese them all, all of the time ;)

I think John's knives are whicked awesome.

Francois's magazine is top-notch, beautiful photos on heavy weight, quality paper. The cover of the copy I have looks like the knives are actually laying on it.

Terry, I couldn't agree more. I have a beautiful copy of the Japanese knife magazine that I'm in...I can't read a lick of Japanese...but I sure like to look at the pretty pictures! :D

I hope it's obvious I'm not taking sides, I don't WANT to...I just wanted to add my uneccessary two cents :eek: :D :eek:

Thanks,
Nick

Francois- It's good to see you're keeping a presence here!
 
I was taken aback when I read the article as well. I remember returning to it a couple of times to see if it was a gag or a misprint.

All I can say is that the description offered in the article in no way resembles the one Fitch knife (a bowie) that I own nor any I have ever seen or handled at several Blade Shows.
 
I've stayed in the background on this one for a couple of reasons. Mainly I was trying to figure out a way to discuss this and remain in neutral ground. I know John quite well, and have both handled a number of his knives, and competed against him in cutting competitions where of course he beat me like a red headed stepchild. I really like John, and I love his knives.

At the other end of the spectrum, I don't feel that Dominique has done me any wrong at all. I was a bit surprised when not2sharp gave a summary of comments from the article and under my name he only listed:

1) Couldn't cut rope
2) Handle is too flat (caused blisters)

Don't get me wrong. I'm not getting onto not2sharp here because that is apparently what stood out to him. Those two critiques did in fact exist in the article, but it was hardly what I would consider a summary.

I finally got copies of the issue and what I see (copied directly from the article) is that my camp knife:
  • Shaved hair cleanly
  • Hacked 4 2x4s to kindling
  • Cut no less than six magnolia logs ranging from 2-1/2" to 5" thick
  • Cut enormous amounts of limbs, brambles and thick branches, and four oak logs that were between 2" and 4-1/2" thick.

It also mentions that the next day when friends dropped by, they did even more cutting with it, though no specifics were given.

Dominique did tell me after the testing of the knives (which was a year ago or more) that some of the other things they tested after the rough stuff was how the knives would fair with kitchen type duty (camp style). They cut up either a leg of lamb or a leg of veal, I forget exactly which. I think he said they cut up chickens, and another one that surprised me was that they also filleted some fish. Not that an 11-3/8" camp knife would be ideal for these applications, but the idea was to see how well the knives would do at a variety of things that they might be called upon to do in camp.

When all this stuff was being setup and I spoke with Dominique for the first time, he told me that he planned to report things exactly as they happened, and that his plan was to videotape all the tests.

After the tests he called me. He was very excited about how the knife performed. However, he did tell me about the problems cutting rope and that handle design was uncomfortable for him. He also told me that these problems had to appear in the article along with the good. He said that he could not candy coat the results, or the entire thing would be null and void.

For me, the negative aspects were more valuable than the positive. The good things make you feel good, but teach you nothing. One of the things that I have learned in my years of association with the ABS is that when you put something up for critiquing, you darned well better have thick skin and be ready to hear what's wrong with your knife. This does two things. It prepares you for the real world where things aren't always rosy, and you will hear negative things. It also gives the wonderful opportunity to learn where shortcomings exist so that you can improve on your work and your skills.

I already knew that my handle design might not fair well because it wasn't generic. It was fitted to my hand. That was a mistake. I am 5' 6" and have fairly small hands. The problem with the rope surprised me to a degree, but was not beyond belief. It was more than likely the edge that I chose. In my own testing of the knife I chopped up 2x4s, seasoned oak from my firewood pile, and a landscaping timber. I didn't have any rope. I finished up the edge on an ultra fine ceramic stone and stopped on leather. This polished sort of edge shaves like crazy, but tends to slide out of the cut on free-hanging rope instead of ripping on through.

Anyway, it is very unfortunate that things turned out like they did. It has almost been a no win situation for everyone involved. John's review has caused an uproar. It was not a good thing for John, but I know that it will probably not have much of an impact on his continued success. He still has a strong following and has plenty of positive press. Everyone loves the stories of this giant of a man who does amazing things with his knives. In some circles he has already achieved an almost legendary status. John will continue to move upwards.

Conversely, the public reactions have pretty much destroyed Dominique's writing career here in the U.S. (at least for now, if not forever) even though he emphatically states that he only reported things exactly as they occurred, and even went as far as documenting everything in video.

The rest of us pretty much lose out as well. The only thing talked about seems to be how a writer was after John for some reason. All the rest of us who spent untold amounts of time creating and testing knives for this article end up being little more than a sidenote in the publics eye. And when someone does mention our names the only thing that comes out is the negative things said about our offerings.

One thing I think perhaps would have helped Dominique would have been to check the edges of all the knives, and if he found some to be lacking, for whatever reason, go ahead and touch the edges up himself to his own satisfaction before the real testing began. It would have been an opportunity to report how easy/difficult the knives were to sharpen.

I apologize for such a long rambling. This thing has been eating away at me since the thread started.
 
:) Don't ya just love this Primos guy? Here he has a chance to get all grumpy and defensive, and he turns it into constructive criticism and ends his comments on a very positive note. I know John Fitch quite well, and I know he is reacting the same way. John is probably out in the shop right now, trying to make his knives even better. John won't lose any sleep over this article. John loses sleep for lots of other reasons, but not this. ;) :)

This is just another reason why I buy knives for more than just the knives. It is another reason why I will continue to buy knives from Terry Primos, John Fitch and others with similar attitudes. To me, a knife is only a part of the equation. A maker's attitude and personality, as well as the friendship that develops along the way is every bit as important to me as the knife itself.
 
Originally posted by Danbo
:)
This is just another reason why I buy knives for more than just the knives. It is another reason why I will continue to buy knives from Terry Primos, John Fitch and others with similar attitudes. To me, a knife is only a part of the equation. A maker's attitude and personality, as well as the friendship that develops along the way is every bit as important to me as the knife itself.
Click to expand...

That puts it all in a nut shell brother Dan, I know I would not have many knives at all if it were not for the people!

Give John a call when you get a chance, I know he would like to hear from you.
 
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