Knights of Columbus sword

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mrhd96

Joined
Nov 10, 2001
Messages
4
A friend at work just gave me this old sword and i believe its an
Knight of Columbus sword.The handle looks like its ivory.The blade
has writing on it on a ribon that says Loyalty,Obediance and something else that i cant read.It also has other drawings on it.
Here is the web site with some pictures on it.
http://www.users.fast.net/~mrhd96/index2.html
If someone could help determine what this is and what it may be worth i would greatly appreciate it. Thanks!
 
Hello MRHD, from looking at the photos it could be an older K of C sword. There were also a number of fraternal organizations that had swords, such as KKK, IOOF, and others. Most of the fraternal swords I have encountered usually range in price from $100.00 to $200.00. However, that said, there are always exceptions. Depending on the age of the sword and condition and what group it is from value can go up. Swords from the ku klux klan are very expensive. I hope this offers some help. Also you might post this on Mr. Levines forum, he has a wealth of information.
B. R. Tomberlin
Anvil Top Custom Knives
 
I've seen one of these somewhere else recently, just can't remember where.
Give me a day or two, I think I can turn something up.
 
I concur with the general opinion that it is probably a Knights of Columbus sword. I have seen several others that were identified as such that look pretty much just like this one. As a sword it is pretty much worthless (i.e. it is non usable) but to some collectors of such things it might be valuable depending on the condition.
 
Triton,

Presentation swords were purchased as society membership articles, and awarded as presentation pieces. They were not intended for use. But, that does not mean that they could not be used. While certainly not the best of swords these probably compare well with most midrange production swords currently on the market. At least when these were made during the 19th century there were still plenty of people around who knew what a sword was.

If the blade is as good as the handle the price on this one is in the $150-250 range + a good premium if the handle material really is ivory.

BTW, are there any maker's marks anywhere on the sword?

n2s
 
I guess the arguement could be made that any sword shaped object could be used but as you say these things were not really intended for that. How would they stack up against todays stuff? Well they are certainly more usable then most of the currently available stainless stuff. However the ones I have seen have no edge geometry or heat treat to speak of, are poorly balanced and all the decorative elements make them a whole lot less then optimal for anything approaching serious usage. Just my opinion of course.
 
not2sharp,

There is a MFG on it.Sorry should have wrote that before.
It says AMES MFG. CO. Hicopee Mass.
The Hicopee part is a little hard to read but i think that is
what it says.
 
It's definitely a K of C sword.
I'm still looking for more details as to period of manufacture though.
 
Strike that, it's not definitely anything.
It looks like my first source may have mis-identified it.
Argh!
This is maddening, but I now consider it a personal challenge.
LOL
I WILL IDENTIFY THIS SWORD!!!!!
:mad:
:D
 
The Ames Sword Company is one of the better known US sword makers of the 19th century. They operated from 1829 until 1935.

Your sword is an official Militia Officer's Sword c. 1840-1847. The sword is shown on pg. 76 of The Ames Sword Company by John D. Hamilton (ISBN 0-917218-18-3). The illustrated example is very similar but has mother of pearl grips. Mother of pearl tends to develop a white patina over time so it might be worth taking another look at that handle to see if it too is pearl.

Enjoy the sword and keep it safe - you have a real veteran there.

n2s
 
I'm not absolutely sure you're right, N2S.
It's very close to the 1840 Militia Officer, but not exact.
Here's a pic,
67-168.jpg



As you can see, it shares the same pommel and has a similar grip, but the quillons are vastly different.

I'd expect to see some variation between manufacturers of that period, but that's a bit too much for me to say you've got a positive I.D. there.

As opposed to mrhd69's sword shown below.
(I'll submit that it's possible the hilt was replaced at some time in the past.)
 

Attachments

  • unknown sword 001.jpg
    unknown sword 001.jpg
    60.9 KB · Views: 89
There is alot of variation in these swords but this one is very close.

n2s

added: The 1885 AMES Catalog shows the sword as either the model 629, or 630 (depending on the scabbard style). Both were listed under Military Association (they were no longer regulation at that point)and standard with bone grips for $7.00.
 
Okay, what do <b>I</b> know?

Right off the top of my head there buddy, I'd say ya got one o' them thar 1840 type Militia Officer's Swords!





All kidding aside, Great work N2S! You nailed it.
:D
 
Nuts! I hate being dead wrong. I was completely convinced it was one of those fraternal swords. Was this thing supposed to be usable?
 
During the late 19th century, as orders for military swords were on the decline, companies like Ames turned to marketing swords to private associations, and most of their sales now came from these groups. They continued to use many of the designs and patterns they had developed for their official military swords. So many of the same blade and hilt patterns were now used on civilian swords.

This is probably an 1840s militia sword, made during the later 19th century for a military association. They would have been offered in many standard quality grades (the 1885 catalog lists three) and whatever custom options the customer was willing to buy. Even as late as the 1920s, shortly before the company failed, they were still able to deliver very high quality presentation pieces, and these also would have barrowed from their standard patterns.

The price on any of this stuff would depend on quality, condition, and any confirmed association with notable people.

n2s
 
In 1985, Dover Books republished the Schuyler, Hartley, & Graham Illustrated Catalogue of Arms and Military Goods as the Schuyler, Hartley, & Graham Illustrated Catalogue of Civil War Military Goods. On page 42, it shows two Masonic Order swords, Nos. 36 and 37, a fancy one for officers and a simpler one with a brass and leather scabbard for sergeants. The decoration on the scabbard tip that you show in your picture is an eight pointed Masonic Star, ifdentical to the one on the scabbard tip of the fancier plated metal scabbard for the officer's sword and to the one on the escutcheon plate that is on the front of sergeant's sword at the crossing as seen from the side when the face of the helmet faces to the viewer's left. Unfortunately, none of the pictures that are posted show that view, so I cannot tell if your sword has such an secutcheon plate. The hilt on the sergeant's sword is otherwise identical to the one that you have posted in your pictures. The fact that your sword appears to have come with an all-brass scabbard rather than a brass-mounted leather scabbard does not change my identification of it as a Masonic Order sword, probably for a sergeant's rank. That could have been simply a matter of customer choice.

BTW, I am not a Mason, I am basing this totally upon the pictures in that reproduction catalogue, which is still available. If you are interested at all in CW equipments and/or uniforms, it is invaluable.

Illustrated Catalog of Civil War Military Goods: Union Weapons, Insignia, Uniform Accessories and Other Equipment, by Schuyler, Hartley, & Graham, List Price: $12.95, Our Price: $10.36, You Save: $2.59 (20%) at Amazon.com.
 
Hey thanks guys for all the help!
Fuller H, i dont see that plate that you speak of.
I wish you guys could see this in person and have a look at all the
drawings on the blade. I would love to know what the 3rd word is in
the ribon.Maybe someone will know, it looks like M***LITY, its very
worn there and hard to see. No ideas of what its worth? It is kind
of dirty, the blade is worn badly from being run in and out also it
has lots of rust pits in it. In my opinion its in poor shape but its still a very neat sword. I dont think it is a usable sword as you guys have mentioned since there is no edge on it.
 
Mrhd06, thanks, I guess that your version does not have that option. But that is, most definitely, a Masonic Star on the scabbard tip.
 
M***LITY = MORALITY?

Just a guess, but it was not uncommon to engrave "Virtues" on a blade.

I'd be willing to bet that one of the other two words is "HONOR" and I'd even risk the loss of a nickle that the third word is "COURAGE."

But that's just my guess.
;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top