Knives and Guns - Different Arguments

[James Mattis]

A lot of the "knife people" around here are also "gun people," and there is a lot of fear in this crowd that the anti-gun movement will set their sights on knives. (Excuse the gun metaphor!) There are people who fear and hate any object that can be construed as a weapon, but in the USA at least it's not necessarily the same people who are grabbing guns and restricting sharp objects.

Take California, for example. A few years ago, the CA Legislature passed a bill, by State Senator Lockyer, a Democrat who is now the CA Attorney General, which would have legalized the carrying of "dirks or daggers" as a recognized religious practice. This was intended to help the Sikh community in particular. The Democrats in both houses voted for it, the Republicans voted against it, and Republic Governor Wilson vetoed it.

The infamous (in this crowd) broad definition of "dirk or dagger" that, read literally, criminalizes a ball point pen in your pocket in California, was passed unanimously by both Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, and the guy who wrote the phrase was a deputy DA who is very conservative and talks like an NRA officer when it comes to gun issues.

When I first heard about a bill this last year to outlaw "undetectable knives" in California, I thought I would be dealing with some sort of hoplophobic liberal as its author, and found that he was a conservative Republican. That bill was sponsored by the CA sheriffs' lobby, since they're the folks in charge of courthouse security.

People defending the right to keep and bear firearms are defending both a right to personal defense and a right to maintain an Ultimate Check and Balance against arbitrary and tyranical governent.

People defending the right to keep and bear sharp objects are defending both an universal and essential tool and a personal defensive weapon, but generally not a political deterrent. And when a knife does show up in politics or war, it's a nasty subversive spy's or assassin's weapon.

And there are states where you can get a pistol-packing permit rather easily, that have the usual catch-all restrictions on sharp objects.

The impetus to restrict knives comes mainly, not from "liberals," but from "law and order" people. Police, in particular, have rational concerns about unhappy people they contact coming up with sharp steel at close range.

There is some overlap, of course, between knife arguments and the gun arguments, but we should be careful not to mis-identify people we're arguing with and the issues we need to deal with to get to some agreement.

Or, in short, give a knife to a liberal!

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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[SDouglas]

James,

Excellent post as usual.

You are absolutely right we must treat Knives and Guns differently because both their primary uses and the groups that are seeking to control them are different.

I believe that it is safe to say that the vast majority of people that carry Knives consider them as Tools first and foremost.

I also believe that the majority of the people who draft and support anti-knife laws would say that they do not want to infringe on the right to carry a knife as a tool. They only want to prevent it from being used as a weapon and any accidental infringement on legitimate carry will be outweighed by enhanced public safety.

Consequently one of our challenges is to show how well intentioned laws have the unintended consequence of infringing on the legitimate carry of knives as tools to such an extent that the harm outweighs the potential benefit.

Yes, I am intentionally ignoring the legitimate use of knives as Self-Defense Weapons because that argument is not significantly different for Knives and Guns.

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AKTI Member No. A000370

 

[James Mattis]

Of course, we should not forget that self-defense in the gravest extreme is a good and life-sustaining and even "innocent" use for the Ancient Universal Tool.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001

 

[Sal Glesser]

There are many issues that are just not the same between knives & guns. It is very unlikely that one can accidentally "knife" their neighbor while "cleaning their knife"

sal

 

[David Williams]

Originally posted by Sal Glesser:
There are many issues that are just not the same between knives & guns. It is very unlikely that one can accidentally "knife" their neighbor while "cleaning their knife"

sal

ROFLMAO

On a more serious note, parts of Britain and Australia already outlaw most knives. Possibly all knives. Plus BB guns and slingshots and...

http://www.self-gov.org/good/a0026.html

http://www.lp.org/lpn/9911-talking.html

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"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb


[This message has been edited by David Williams (edited 01-22-2000).]

 

[Dan Lawson]

It is disappointing to learn that somepeople who are advocates of protecting gun/firearm rights take an inconsistent course w/ respect to edged tools and or non-firing arms . I cannot reconcile these inconsistent positions based on physical differences. Knives are tools used by almost everyone on a daily basis for eating , food preparation/processing/gathering, opening packages/envelopes , plying trades , performing surgery , and otherwise making adjustments
/alterations to our immediate surrondings.
On occasion knives are appropriately used for personal protection . Given the almost infinite variation in knife design , it is impossible to control or eliminate the use of knives in crime based upon some arbitrary design/size standard and not impair lawful/rightful use . If one believes in firearm freedom , as I do , how does one rationally legislate as to knives .
We need to recognize that ther are legal links between knives and guns . See A Guide to Understanding Knife Laws on the AKTI website . We also need to recognize a " domino effect " with respect to individual liberties .. Australia ,as mentioned previously , is a perfect and poignant example . Parochialism as between knife and gun " people " should be avoided . Let us avoid generalizations and un-productive alienation of natural allies .

 

[SDouglas]

Dan,

I suspect that the main reason that people who oppose "Anti-Gun" Legislation support "Knife-Control" Legislation is the perceived difference between Banning and Controlling.

Most people recognize that the ultimate goal of the Anti-Gun Crowds is to Ban all guns outright.

I do not believe that any thinking person really wants to ban all knives outright. Instead they want to pass laws that "Control" knives that are particularly well suited as weapons. That is why most "Knife Restriction" Laws refer to Dirks and Daggers which are by definition Weapons. The problem is that the qualities the legistlatures associate with Knives designed to function as weapons are also associated with Knives designed to function as tools.

The challenge that we face along with the NRA and other groups is trying to restore the concepts of Personal Responsibility and Punishment for Unacceptable Behavior. Unfortunately our Legislatures pass laws against "Weapons" because they have bought into the concept that individuals are not responsible for their actions and the only way to prevent violent crime is to prevent individuals from gaining access to said Weapons.

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AKTI Member No. A000370

 

[CJ Buck]

I had the opportunity to present in person to both the assembly committee and the senate committee in regards to an assembly bill, the number eludes me right now (ab3314?) or so, and participated in a hallway discussion with the lobbyist for the California Sherriff's Association. His major goal for knife legislation was to make certain items illegal because to prove intent was too difficult with the weak minded jurors they come in contact with constantly. That is the temptation. These law enforcement officers are trying to get criminals off the streets before they committ a serious crime. Again I agree with what they are trying to do but I think they are being short sighted about it and the general populace is reacting out of fear and approving these things.

I agree with Jim that knives and guns should be separated in our arguments. Law enforcement already has the ability to make an arrest based on possession of a gun. They do not have to prove intent. They are trying to get the same advantage with knives. We need to always be there to explain that knife legislation hurts more than it helps.

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CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003

 

[Dan Lawson]

I do not urge some consoladation of knife and gun advocasy groups or even the arguements. Unfortunately guns do have some " baggage " which is not the case with edged tools / weapons . Similiarly, we should not abdicate the issue of protecting knife rights to what is sometimes identiified as the firearms lobby . However most arguements against gun control apply to knives . ( the reverse is not necessarily the case ) Where firearm freedom peoplesuggest knfe control , the individual responsibilty aguement applies . Beyond this , anyone who suggests some knife control legislation is necessary should be guided through a discussion of how knives are part of the fabric of everyday life and that there are not good knives and bad knives but a few bad people who will gain possession of an edged tool despite the most restrictive laws imaginable .