Laminated blades?

nozh2002

nozh2002

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Question to Sal:
I have some laminated knives and blades. It is triple laminated stainless steel - extremely sharp and tough and rust resistant. Thickness for blade even less then for Native. I read somewhere that it was made by using particle metallurgy (cooks 2 different types of powder in one matrix in three layers). The steel on the sides - 18-8, kitchenware steel and something secret for core.
What the reason that nobody use same blades on folders? If CPM S60 V will be coveed by 18-8 or something on Police or Endura or Delica - it will be super knife! Or it is some hidden problem with such knives?
I'll realy like to have Delica SS with CPM laminated blade.
Thanks,
Vassili.
 
I think Cliff Stamp has made some postings about laminated steel, in reference to Fallkniven knives. He seems to be of the opinion that lamination doesn't really add much to a great steel. It's mostly used to add strength to a hard, brittle steel that holds a good edge. S30V is already pretty tough stuff.

(Caveat - obviously I'm not an expert on laminated steels, and my memory could be way off here. Wish I could put my finger on the relevant thread.)
 
I can see a stainless wrap on a super edge holder that was not stainless.

What would be the advantage of two laminated stainless steels, other than the appearance of the "lamination line" looking cool?

Would you be willing to pay two to four times as much for the laminated steel?

sal
 
This is a technological limitation as I read. Stainless can not be combined with carbon. If it is possible - Great! But as I understand it is always stainless with stainless, carbon with carbom.
Knives I am tolking about are not Fallkniven and core there is not a VG-10, but some secret razor steel. If it is appropriate to name other knives in Spyderco forum - I will. (I do not want promote anithing other then Spyderco here). Spyderco is always on the edge of technical progress - this is why I am addressing this questions to Sal here.
As I understan the best edge holding steel is CPM S60V (CPM S440V) with 2.15% Carbon. Which is unfortunately too brittle, so Spyderco start using compromize solution - CPM S30V (if I am not mistaken).
Lamination can help keep CPM S60V core with best edge possible and make it tough as cookware by using 18-8 on the sides.
And it is possible - Damasteel doing this with more then 3 layers using powder metallurgy.
Thanks, Vassili.
 
Hi Vassili. Darryl Meier was joining stainless and carbon more than 10 years ago. It is possible, not practical.

Spyderco switched from S60V to S30V because S30V cut better, stayed sharper longer and was tougher than S60V.

S60V is also quite tough in its own right, so I don't think we would gain much in the laminate, other than to increase the cost of production.

The laminates that I have seen to date, including Damasteel are seeking a "look" and not a "performance" goal.

We have no problem with anyone mentioning any other company on the Spyderco forum. AS long as it is an honest communication and not a slam. Spyderco has good relationships with most other factories.

sal
 
Ok, I was wrong about trhis CPM steels then, sorry for my speculations, now I know.
Knives I reffering to is Helle, defenetely it is not about nice look - it is really hard to see (Hiro LB is a different case) and this is 80% of Norvegian market of working knives - it is all about performance. I heard a lot of happy hunters and outdoorsmans reports about this knives. Especially about sharpness and edge holding in bad nature conditions.
And Laminated blades is old tradition in Scandinavia as I understand. Way before Meier did this 10 years ago - so they still make SS with SS only.
But nobody doing folders with laminated blades (this why I jumped on Hiro LB first time I saw it). From the begining I thought it is because laminated blades are thick, but they are not. So why then? Seems like price level is not an issue too.
However, if CPM S30V is sharper then anything else and tougher then 18-8 - no reason to make it laminated. But it is hard to belive in such miraculous steel.
Thanks, Vassili.
 
Hi Nozh. The Scandanavians have been laminateing blades for many years. I believe they are using "hi-carbon" edges with stainless sides.

S30V is an unusual steel.

sal
 
S30V is a great steel. The primary reason for 18-8 in a laminated steel in any blades I've seen is for corrosion resistance, not toughness. 18-8 is definitely not a high quality steel, at least not going by the types of things you are looking for in a bldae(it makes good pots and pans though, as these have different requirements). It is used in laminted steels for the same reason another company uses 420 for the outer layers of their laminated steels, that of corrosion resistance. It also allows a softer layer on the outside which in theory will increase toughness(part of reason it's softer is that these steels tend just not to be able to be hardened as much as a steel like S30V, or even something like 440C).

The designation 18/8 refers to a steel with 18% chromium and 8% nickel(and hence, 18/10, also used in cookware, is 10% nickel and 18% chromium). THis gives you a very corrosion resistant steel. The 18/8 designation generally refers to one of the 300 series stainless steels. These are very corrosion resistant, and hence good for flatware. THe problem is they tend to have no higher than .15% Carbon content, and hence don't harden well. ALso, 300 series steels tend to be harder to work and good a good looking finish on them, at least compared to a 440 series steel, or one of the CPM steels(Actually, the CPM steels can be jsut as hard to work, but they can still hold a superior finish to the 300 series steels). If you look around in the Shop Talk forum there have been many people asking whether 304 or 416 stainless was better for items such as guards and spacres, and the consensus is always 416, as it is much easier to apply a nice looking finish to the steel.

Here's a link with a bit more information on Stainless Steels(300 series in particular)

http://www.manasquanfasteners.com/Stainless Steel Technical Data.htm

I always am suspect of knife companies that claim some super secret steel. Seems to happen more with kitchen cutlery than other parts of knife market. They are normally selling to people who aren't interested or knowledgable about knives in general, so they can use bits like that for marketing. What you'll often then find out if you dig deeper is that it's some standard steel alloy. Nothing bad, but nothing special.

In another thread someone responded that they had emailed Helle and gotten this composition for the inner core:

Carbon 0.67, Si: 0.70, S: 0.002, P:0.019, Mn: 0.44, Ni: 0.28, Cr: 14.25, and Mo: 0.52.

I prefer a higher carbon content in steels I make, but I also don't work with stainless, so I have different standards anyways. :) Can't seem to track down what alloy this is, but it can at least give you some ideas.
 
Hi Etp. Thanx for the link.

regarding the "claims of super steels"; When Spyderco began making knives (1981), we used the best production steels available at the time. Naturally, these better steels were more expensive to purchase and to process, which made our knives more expensive.

In oreder to explain the reason for the higher price, we needed a way to explain to the customer why a better steel made a better knife. We began putting the steel names on our knives and began publishing steel chemical charts. All of our "sales pitches" included the need for a better steel. The education process was a greater undertaking than we thought. At the time, the only real source for steel info in knives was from the custom guys. I joined the Guild in 1979 as an associate member. I learned a great deal from the makers in the Guild and the ABS. Many of the custom guys are the "real deal" when you really want to peel back the onion on steels.

Even today, many knife users, but non aficianados (if you are on this forum, you are a knife aficianado) still don't know one steel from another, and many don't care. At that point, it becomes the "name" of the producer that becomes more important than the chemical composition. "So & So makes good knives, stays sharp al long time"

It is still enjoyable to discuss "why" one steel is better than another in what areas ("all good, just different"). Simply because the interest creates the passion and the passion flames the interest.

sal
 
Tohatchi NM,

I think it was me asking Cliff Stamp about a laminated A-1 Fallkniven. You may search for Franco G at Theleading edge of knife discussion, finding Cliff's answer.

I am not very excited about laminated blades.

nozh2002,

Hi Vassili,

nozh means knife , isn't that? Is that Russian or Bulgarian, if I may ask you? I gess it from your name. As a matter of fact, the same word is used in Croatian.

Franco
 
Do not get me wrong - I never mention core steel for Helle as super - only secret, just because Helle never mention it composition. Just hi-carbon stainless razor steel (but they have carbon laminated blades too). Helle says that they work in close cooperation with Norwegian Steel institute - who knows what they really cooked there. INFI has even less carbon then 0.65%.

I bet Norwegians who in general consuming this knives definitely need rust resistance, because of salt water of Arctic ocean. Also they need good working knife - not some exclusive, nice looking etc.

Price for this knives comparable to Spyderco prices even here far from Norge, I do not think that in general it will cost much more.

It is also much easy to sharpen - because of soft sides - 2/3 of the blade.

to Franco G - Yes I am Russian (from California).

I am participating Russian forum too - where I hear a lot of excellent reports about Spyderco and also Helle. Practical hunters and fishermans like laminated blades because of sharpness, edge holding and price also.

But Helle focused on internal market and do not make folders. Only laminated folder exist - Hiro LB, but it is small gentlemen knife (and it is VG10+VG10+VG10 - and no explanation why he did it). Laminated Police or Military or Endura or Delica will be really cool knife.

Did Stamp really tested Helle? It seems he is focusing on "real" knives - 5" and more. I like to see his review on this one, so far my impression is based on non
scientific hunters and fishermans reviews and my own experience.

They test Helle Futura by slicing perches on Baikal lake - after 150-180 perches knife performs without resharpening (perch has hard skin - good test for edge).

Please, consider this thread as a request for closer look into this technology - I believe it is step forward - other way to make blade better not by steel composition
but by "construction".

Thanks, Vassili.
 
My understanding of laminated steels is that its for toughness, not corrosion resistance.

18-8 sides with a hard, high carbon edge would not protect the edge from corrosion at all, much in the same way that coating a blade doesn't protect the edge. I didn't pay too much attention in electrochemistry lectures, but it seems to me that steels with varying galvanic potentials will set up a galvanic cell, and it is always the more vulnerable metal that will come off worst in the corrosion stakes. Zinc in galvanised fasteners, sacrificial zinc blocks on steel hulled ships and the high carbon core in a laminated blade. One of our metallurgist friends might be able to elucidate.

The benefit of laminating is in have different hardnesses for mechanical strength and/or edge holding, hence the VG10|VG10|VG10 in soft|hard|soft configuration makes sense, where the hardness of the core would normally result in an excessively brittle knife, the soft sides offer mechanical support/padding.

I suspect that the reason this kind of construction is common in Scandinavia is the climate. Extreme cold will compromise the toughness of a hard, durable blade which might be otherwise fine in temperate climates.
 
Yes toughness is defenetely the point - they made hi-carbon laminated blades. Mora, Brusletto, and Helle too they all make very rusty laminated blades from carbon steel.
However in stainless blades core is stainless too - I do not have any corrosion on the edge.
Thanks, Vassili.
 
Vassili,

I was just trying to point out that I don't think corrosion resistance is the main reason (if at all) for laminating, as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

My electrochemistry is a bit rusty (!) but I think that wrapping Hi-Carbon in Stainless might actually be detrimental. Obviously stainless|stainless and Carbon|carbon would have no net benefit in terms of corrosion resistance over a homogenous blade.

In terms of looks, it may be a benefit, but since the susceptible hi carbon part will always be the working part (edge) then there is no functional benefit that I can see.

Also, such a blade wouldn't be easier to sharpen but more difficult, as the part you're sharpening is always the hard edge (not the soft sides), which will be harder than in a 'normal' blade, since that's why it was laminated in the first place.

I don't see the advantage of a laminated blade for a typical folder, because the sorts of stresses they tend to experience don't even seem to challenge the standard steels we have available today and they can generally afford to be harder anyway. They may add a little tip strength (probably not as the taper will take away the soft steel first) but even if they do the people who tend to break tips will still manage it. I think theres more advantage to be found in better lock designs or different blade profiles.

I'm just theorising here, so feel free to jump on me...

Would an Endura with a core of 65 Rc and sides of 45 Rc be any better in the real world than a regular Endura at 59-60 Rc in the real world? I expect not.

Interesting discussion, though.

Dom
 
Interesting subject. IMO, the INFI was a breakthrough. And the S30V could be considered an improved version of INFI. It has toughness and corrosion resistance.
OTOH, even with the all popular ATS-34, ATS-55 or VG-10, there's no need for lamination as the performance is more than satisfactory.
 
Dom,

I am not jumping on you, I really appreciate your input and respect you opinion (I already proved myself some time ago - do not need to jump on people). I have this knives and I like them - I just like to have laminated steel folder: Police or Native (with belly handle) and I am enjoying this discussion.

I think that probably no any blade steel can compete with 18-8 in corrosion resistance (not sure about X15T.N.). Salt water can turn good stainless steel into rust (I read some story about this here in bladeforum). 18-8 sides may protect entire blade from this. However TN or boron carbide coating may do the same job (but they does not make blade tougher).

It is easy to sharpen - hard core much thinner then in solid blade from same steel. Other words - with same performance, sharpening will be easier. Of course it will be harder then sharpening same 18-8 blade.

I like to have 65HRC knife (for reasonable price (maximum I have so far 62HRC)). I think there is a lot of guys here who will love to have it even for unreasonable price especially from Spyderco. I do not think it is possible. I think 60-62 will be just fine but tougher, easy to sharpen and more corrosion resistant. For example BG-42 turns to be too brittle at 62HRC - may be 18-8 sides will fix this problem.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Vassili,

I wasn't suggesting you were jumping on me, I was just saying you should feel free to! Its just the way I express myself. :)

I've never owned or used a laminated blade, so I was just speculating aloud about the pros and cons.

The point that I really wanted to emphasise is that I seriously doubt there will be any benefit in corrosion resistnce, since the important part (the edge) will always be exposed, and vulnerable to corrosion. Further, being clad in a less corrodible (sp?) metal may actually ACCELERATE the corrosion of the edge. This may be why they say you can't mix stainless with carbon. Not sure though. So the only improvement is likely to be toughness.

I can see the benefit in toughness for a larger blade, which may be used for chopping, or prying, etc but not a folder. There may be a measurable difference, but I doubt it would be meaningful in use. The law of diminishing returns comes into play (don't forget that we have evolved from the bushes to skyscrapers based on how well we used stone, bronze and iron tools - on evolutionary timescales, steel only emerged a heartbeat ago - how badly do we really need an extra Rc point or three?). What can we do with a 65 rc Endura that we can't do with a 60 rc one? If it costs 4 times as much, will it stay sharper 4 times as long?

I doubt it. So if I'm doing a job where I'm likely to blunt my knife before I get back to the Sharpmaker, I may carry a stone, or just an extra Endura (or three). If I only have one knife in my survival kit, I actually want one with a slightly softer steel, that can easily be sharpened on a rock, or whatever.

Don't get me wrong, I think laminated blades are a cool idea, another example of human ingenuity, and I'm all for continued development and improvement but I'm a salesman, and I know that most people don't want to know what or how, they want to know 'why?'. And there's no 'why' here that would make me buy one in a folder.

So maybe I should ask you 'why'?

Did you know that some eye surgeons still use shards of stone for some of the more intricate work? (i read this a few years ago) With all the technology they have at their fingertips they still go back to the stone age! There must be a 'why?' there...

Dom
 
There is a new thread, title For Cliff Stamp, on the Blade Discussion Forum, where Cliff comments about laminated blades (especially Fallknivens).

Nozh2002,
There is a possibility for a special run of Delicas with a ZDP-189 blade that could have a very high Rc - was announced by Sal.

Franco
 
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