Lets beat this dead horse a little more : Honing Oil ?!?

[Wowbagger]

I've been researching.
The quote below tends to go best with my intellectual (but no experience) take on honing oil.
I fooled around with Buck Oil when I got my first set of disastrously bad natural Ark stones when I was a kid. The experience sucked so bad. Coarse stone not coarse enough to actually sharpen a dull knife and the surface was so flawed and made of different textures I may as well have been using a rock out of the drive way.

Fast forward to a decade ago; I bought a super nice Dans 10 inch translucent and just used water. I have never tried oil on it. I never use it because most all my alloys from A2 to you name it (S110V etc.) are just not fun on this stone. I just like the stone so I bought one and that't why I have it . . . OKAAAaaaayyyy ????

So what is 'bagger wittering on about ? ? ? ?
I have been looking for a pocket (manpurse) stone to use at work exclusively to touch up my box knife and Case CV knives on the spot when they get a little tiny bit less than sharp. I have been using a DMT Ultra Fine 8,000 but don't like how the pointy tip of the box knife gets into the dimples . . . I've fooled around with a 4,000 Shapton Glass stone from my Edge Pro Apex held free hand but that isn't quite what I am looking for; I want to go edge leading and the stone gets a tiny bit gouged from my less than perfect technique free handing it.

So . . . that brings us to the stone I have in my hand as I type this ( I have three arms ) . . . a Dan's Black Hard Ark pocket stone. It is dry. I have not tried it yet. It will be going to work with me tomorrow for a partial day (off early YEAAAAAAHHHHHH).

I have seen people here recommend as much as using Vaseline (high viscosity lube) to as fine as just Kerosene in the woodworking forums and mixes of proprietary honing oil or thin mineral oil with Kerosene or paint thinner added to those.

My first impulse is to just use water. I'm a big water stone user. The cutting oil thing spoken of below also makes a lot of sense to me though.

Every one grab their dead horse beating implement of choice.
Flails up !
and commence !

Here is the link to where I got the quote below rather than fire up that thread again :
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/does-anyone-use-arkansas-stones-without-oil.303983/

It isn't necessarily true that honing oil produces a significant lubricating effect that slows down sharpening. The reason you use oil -- or kerosene, water, or whatever else -- is to a) prevent metal "swarf" from clogging the stone, and b) to reduce the amount of wear on the stone itself.

If you use too heavy or viscous an oil on a stone, then certainly abrasive action can be reduced. But heavy oils aren't really necessary. Kerosene works very well for fine India stones, and mixing a small amount of mineral oil with kerosene works well for soft Arkansas (or so I'm told; I haven't used Arkansas stones for many years.) The net effect of using a proper honing fluid -- a better term than oil, IMO -- is that your stone doesn't tend to load up, and so keeps cutting more efficiently over time, plus you can use more pressure than you could dry without producing so much wear or clogging of the stone.

Of course, if you have a stone that doesn't tend to clog with swarf when used dry, or washes out OK, then that reason for using honing fluid doesn't matter. But your stone may still be wearing much more quickly if you use it dry, and if it's a quality translucent or hard Arkansas stone, there can be a bit of an investment at stake.

Finally, here's something to try if you have any doubts: cut four pieces of steel from some unfinished stock. Take four pieces of wet-dry abrasive paper, 200-600 grit, depending upon how rough the steel is you'll be working. Leave one piece of paper dry, the second one wetted with water, the third with kerosene, and the fourth with a good, commercial cutting/tapping fluid such as Cool Tool II. You'll notice some big differences in how fast the different sheets cut, the uniformity of finish they produce, and how long they last. And you'll find that lubrication isn't the real story behind using honing fluid.

Dave

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

These are the major points for me, as to why I've preferred using oil (mineral oil) rather than water (or dry):

Oil will suspend swarf above the surface of the stone, for a longer period of time. Water won't do that, so swarf will still settle more deeply and more quickly into the pores of the stone, even when it's still quite wet. I used to use my oilstones over the sink filled with water, and dip the stone periodically to re-wet it. I noticed after working that way for a while, the swarf rinsed out of the stone would immediately settle to the bottom of the sink. I also noticed if wiping the surface of the wetted stone, my rag/towel wasn't collecting near as much swarf as was being generated, because it had already settled deeply into the stone. I wasn't fully aware of how much wasn't being picked up, until I started using the same stones with oil and I was able to more effectively wipe the swarf away with a towel (towel picked up a LOT more of it). That made it clear, in my view, that the oil was doing a much better job of suspending the swarf so it could be wiped away. I had also noticed, after using the stones with water and then letting them dry out afterward, I could actually SEE the clogging of the stone's surface pores, which wouldn't clean up so easily after the fact. I eventually used some Bar Keepers Friend powder & water to scrub the stone clean again while dissolving the steel swarf. Another lesson learned.

Also, aside from the 'floating the swarf' aspect while the stone is wetted, oil will still keep swarf from sticking to the stone if/when it has actually settled onto the surface. That's important after the oiled stone is allowed to dry out. When cleaning it after it's dried, all it takes is applying a little more oil to the surface and spreading it around, and any settled swarf will immediately be 'floated' again, so it can be wiped clean. It's also much better with some low-alloy stainless steel swarf, which tenaciously clings to the grit of the stone if used dry or even with water. Used with oil, it just can't hold on that tenaciously, and can easily be wiped away.

Water evaporates. Depending on local environment, whether it's humid or arid, how fast it evaporates may become an issue, if you find you're having to re-wet the stone frequently. When it dries, you're dealing with all the same issues as if you'd not used water at all (very quick clogging, more difficult to clean up the stone, etc).

And if one has ever had issues with certain high-carbon, non-stainless steels developing rust spots while working on water-lubricated stones, it's a no-brainer this won't be an issue on an oiled stone.

And another not-quite-minor point for me, personally: in my very arid environment, using oil has been a big help in keeping my hands from drying out so severely that they split & crack at the fingertips. Working with water, or even worse, with any kind of soap (dish soap) & water, my hands really suffered for it after a while.

Regarding having a pocketable stone for Case's CV blades, my current favorite is a 4" x 1" Norton India (Fine) pocket stone. Naturally, I keep a pocket-clip needletip oiler handy, filled with some of Norton's Sharpening Stone oil (100% USP food-grade mineral oil), using that to apply a few drops to the pocket stone when I use it. I like that setup for CV, as well as for Case's stainless (420HC) and Buck's blades in 420HC, 425M as well. Lately, I've been pocketing a Buck 301 (420HC) and an older Buck 'four dot' 112 in 425M, and have used my bench-sized (IB8) and pocket-sized India stones exclusively to tune them up when they need it.

 

[Wowbagger]

I also noticed if wiping the surface of the wetted stone, my rag/towel wasn't collecting near as much swarf as was being generated, because it had already settled deeply into the stone

Yes I can picture that. Thanks

I wasn't fully aware of how much wasn't being picked up, until I started using the same stones with oil and I was able to more effectively wipe the swarf away with a towel (towel picked up a LOT more of it). That made it clear, in my view, that the oil was doing a much better job of suspending the swarf so it could be wiped away.

I've always hated the idea of wiping the stone with a cloth or paper towel because of the lint that might be left on the stone (microscopically). I suppose it doesn't matter that much.

It's also much better with some low-alloy stainless steel swarf, which tenaciously clings to the grit of the stone if used dry or even with water. Used with oil, it just can't hold on that tenaciously, and can easily be wiped away.

Good point.
Gummy nasty stuff . . . cheep stainless is.
Would you put SAK blade steel in this camp ? It does seem to be a bit better. I have one SAK that I have to keep extremely sharp at work.

And if one has ever had issues with certain high-carbon, non-stainless steels developing rust spots while working on water-lubricated stones, it's a no-brainer this won't be an issue on an oiled stone.

That is why the woodworking community is drawn to oil stones and anything that isn't water to put on them kerosene etc. Even A2 gets rust spots.

Thank you. This is all coming together for me finally.

 

[annr]

Well, you could purchse 2 stones, try oil one one and water on the other and see what you think.

(I’ve done both and haven’t cared much because I have multiple stones. Sometimes I even put water on the oiled stone. It just depends what I’m sharpening, what kind of finish I’m needing and if I don’t get it with one, I try the other. Different knives respond differently.)

 

[eKretz]

The quoted stuff in the O.P. all jives with my experience, and I have done a LOT of playing/testing/experimentation with hones and stones.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Regarding wiping the stone with a towel, a microfiber towel works real well, with a minimum of lint left on the stone. The yellow ones marketed for auto buffing/waxing are what I use; think I bought mine last at Costco or Sam's Club. They're also better in picking up the swarf (they make real good dusting rags too; they collect almost everything). I avoid most other cotton towels & such, as they leave a lot more lint behind.

Regarding the question re: SAKs being in the 'soft' and/or gummy stainless camp, they're actually not too bad. Another of the knives I drop in-pocket most days is a Victorinox SAK my Dad used to carry, and I've been sharpening it on the same oiled stones as the Case & Bucks I mentioned. They sharpen up beautifully on most any hone or stone; that speaks well for the steel's quality in general.

 

[lex2006]

These are the major points for me, as to why I've preferred using oil (mineral oil) rather than water (or dry):


And another not-quite-minor point for me, personally: in my very arid environment, using oil has been a big help in keeping my hands from drying out so severely that they split & crack at the fingertips. Working with water, or even worse, with any kind of soap (dish soap) & water, my hands really suffered for it after a while.

This is why I have started using my crystolon more often , the soap water kills my hands in the winter

 

[Alberta Ed]

I prefer diamond hones because they work best dry, and can sharpen any steel. You can get continuous surface diamond hones, altho I've never had any problems with my 'holy' Diafolds. I've pretty well abandoned my natural stones except for a big Black Arkansas bench hone that belonged to a great-uncle. It puts a marvelous finishing edge on high carbon blades.

 

[David Martin]

I use mineral oil on my Norton SiC and India stones. This gives a better edge than using water and cleans up quickly. On diamond stones which I use only sparingly I use oil or soapy water. Whatever I have available. DM

 

[HeavyHanded]

On hard stone surfaces, oil is a good bet, especially on stone surfaces that can glaze. I would use it on my diamonds more, but it tends to form a film that I then need to wash off with solvents.

On my Arkansas, and vitreous manmade stones 100% oil. Some of my natural stones work best with water.

On wet/dry I prefer to use it dry and clean the paper often. Oil or water both seem to improve cutting somewhat but also seem to shorten the life of the paper and induce it to ripple.

Have read up on a bunch of this but a lot of it eludes me. Any lube is not found between the abrasive and the metal, but it seem to help by making the scratch-removed metal piece tear away easier on its boundaries. This makes a cleaner cut, longer pieces of swarf, delays the abrasive particle dulling. Oil works better except in situations where it will form a mud that inhibits cutting.

Have also done some tinkering and found that matching the viscosity to the grit rating (castor oil on 80 grit stone up to 20 cSt silicone oil on Hard Arkansas) improves things yet again but also becomes a big pain in the butt to keep track of.

I have also experimented with using my SIC and India stones dry and just rubbing with a few drops of oil and wiping the swarf off. This work but again is slow and bothersome with no real performance increase.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Arkansas stones = honing oil. No need to mess with the proven formula.

 

[Wowbagger]

Arkansas stones = honing oil. No need to mess with the proven formula.

You are right no doubt.
I finally found a bottle of honing oil at a decent price ~$6.50.
But that is only 3 ounces ! ! ! !

Hahahha I am looking at a huge bottle of mineral oil on the screen for ~$8.75 for 16 ounces delivered to my door ($2.00 Prime Pantry ! ! !) !
Kerosene is ~$2.25 a gallon !

I claim to be English / Irish / German but I fear there is some Scott in there some where as well.
Must be why I am so attracted to my Holdout I.

 

[Eli Chaps]

You can find a pint of Norton honing oil for about $10. I buy that and then fill up a small eye dropper bottle for use. The eye dropper bottle is less messy and I use up less oil since I'm metering it out a little better than with a squeeze bottle.

 

[Blues]

You can find a pint of Norton honing oil for about $10. I buy that and then fill up a small eye dropper bottle for use. The eye dropper bottle is less messy and I use up less oil since I'm metering it out a little better than with a squeeze bottle.

GMTA. I use a medicine dropper. It's a little bigger than the typical eye dropper, probably holds somewhere up to a teaspoon if you want it to. Works great to put a relatively measured amount of oil on the Crystolon, India or Arkansas stones as needed. Mine is filled with Norton oil I've had for quite some time.

 

[annr]

Seems silly to quibble about the price of a few drops of oil over the effectiveness and the sharpness of the edge.

I’ve bought norton honing oil for years —sometimes sharpening for up to 3 hours per day— and a can lasts a long time. Otherwise, there is the drugstore stuff that’s more viscous, which I transferred into a small squeeze bottle for convenience and more precise application.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

For my stones that aren't oil/grease-filled and which drink a lot of oil, I keep those stored in a bath of the heavier-viscosity, pharmacy-grade (laxative) mineral oil. It's a couple pennies under $2 for a 16-ounce bottle at Walmart, where I get it. When I pull the stones out for use, I let them drain off the excess oil (suspended over the storage pan, reclaiming what's drained off), and then just periodically dip a couple fingertips in the pan of oil to re-wet the stone as needed. I have a couple extra bottles of that in reserve as well; my supply of it will likely last me a lifetime of sharpening with those stones.

For my other stones that aren't as thirsty for oil, such as my India, Arkansas and diamond hones, I keep my Norton oil in reserve for those, and don't need to use anywhere near as much of it on those. I have a pocketable, needletip oiler (pic below) I originally found at Home Depot with a little bit of the Norton oil in it, which I use with my smaller pocket stones & diamond hones. Just 3 or 4 drops at a time, with those.

I've also used some food-grade mineral oil I found at a restaurant supply store, also in 16-ounce bottles. It's viscosity is very close to that of the Norton oil (thinner, lighter and very 'clean'), and it's been a very good fallback in lieu of the Norton stuff. It was priced somewhere around $7 - $8 for that bottle. It's labelled for use in lubricating food-processing equipment like meat grinders/slicing machines, etc.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I take issue with the quoted statement "It isn't necessarily true that honing oil produces a significant lubricating effect that slows down sharpening." Lubrication absolutely does not slow down sharpening. It reduces friction, which allows the cutting action to be improved. You don't want friction when sharpening -- you want abrasion, which is cutting. And oil does improve the lubricity of the stone. The fact that it's even up for debate strikes me as a little absurd. Yes, its job is also to suspend particles away from the surface of the stone, but it also significantly improves the cutting ability of the abrasive grains themselves because there's less binding from friction causing wear to the grains, allowing them to stay sharper longer, and to cut more freely with less pressure. Oil is the best choice for lubricating hard stones that don't easily shed grit, because it allows those grains to stay effective for a much longer time before the stone needs dressing.

 

[Eli Chaps]

For my stones that aren't oil/grease-filled and which drink a lot of oil, I keep those stored in a bath of the heavier-viscosity, pharmacy-grade (laxative) mineral oil. It's a couple pennies under $2 for a 16-ounce bottle at Walmart, where I get it. When I pull the stones out for use, I let them drain off the excess oil (suspended over the storage pan, reclaiming what's drained off), and then just periodically dip a couple fingertips in the pan of oil to re-wet the stone as needed. I have a couple extra bottles of that in reserve as well; my supply of it will likely last me a lifetime of sharpening with those stones.

For my other stones that aren't as thirsty for oil, such as my India, Arkansas and diamond hones, I keep my Norton oil in reserve for those, and don't need to use anywhere near as much of it on those. I have a pocketable, needletip oiler (pic below) I originally found at Home Depot with a little bit of the Norton oil in it, which I use with my smaller pocket stones & diamond hones. Just 3 or 4 drops at a time, with those.

I've also used some food-grade mineral oil I found at a restaurant supply store, also in 16-ounce bottles. It's viscosity is very close to that of the Norton oil (thinner, lighter and very 'clean'), and it's been a very good fallback in lieu of the Norton stuff. It was priced somewhere around $7 - $8 for that bottle. It's labelled for use in lubricating food-processing equipment like meat grinders/slicing machines, etc.

That oiler is cool!

 

[Eli Chaps]

I take issue with the quoted statement "It isn't necessarily true that honing oil produces a significant lubricating effect that slows down sharpening." Lubrication absolutely does not slow down sharpening. It reduces friction, which allows the cutting action to be improved. You don't want friction when sharpening -- you want abrasion, which is cutting. And oil does improve the lubricity of the stone. The fact that it's even up for debate strikes me as a little absurd. Yes, its job is also to suspend particles away from the surface of the stone, but it also significantly improves the cutting ability of the abrasive grains themselves because there's less binding from friction causing wear to the grains, allowing them to stay sharper longer, and to cut more freely with less pressure. Oil is the best choice for lubricating hard stones that don't easily shed grit, because it allows those grains to stay effective for a much longer time before the stone needs dressing.

Certainly not arguing with you,as said, I'm an oil-using proponent, but I am curious about the effects of viscosity. For example, if I use the heavier digestive-type mineral oil, I find it too thick. Maybe it is just deadening the feedback so I feel like it's not working as well?

Just curious about your thoughts there.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

That oiler is cool!

'General Tools 589 Precision Oiler', is what it's called. Don't know if Home Depot carries it anymore (I don't see it on their site), but it seems to be readily available elsewhere online, if you go shopping for it.