Lets see your home made knife sharpening devices

bpiatt

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Messages
644
Any of you guys ever make/modify your own sharpening device? I think it would be awesome to see what other people have come up with. I just made a thread about mine, but ill post here again just to get this started. Lets see your pics!



Inspiration: Wicked Edge
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About a year ago, I made this sharpening rig:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Inspired-by-WickedEdge-and-ApexPro-Pict-Heavy
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The following are not my own rigs, but very interesting sharpening rigs by other forum members.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/809918-New-and-improved-Wicked-Edge
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http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/763679/
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/963074-Wicked-Gatco?highlight=wicked+gatco
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http://www.messenforum.nl/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=10341
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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-and-ApexPro-Pict-Heavy?p=9900090#post9900090
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFBzTZNRDbU
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The following are modifications to commercial sharpening rigs:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-and-ApexPro-Pict-Heavy?p=9912850#post9912850
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http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/916441/post/2409016/hl//fromsearch/1/
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There are also several other interesting sharpening rigs, such as on YouTube and other places.

I would love to have discussion about sharpening rigs and their design, use, and making of. :)

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian

P.S. Commercial sharpening rigs are very interesting too, such as from WickedEdge, Edge Pro, and KME Sharp.
 
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Awesome you guys, definitely some creative stuff. Thanks for all of the photos of the different contraptions Lagrangian. Any time you wana talk sharpeners let me know. I love sharpeners as much as I love knives. The sharpener I made is great for smaller blades but anything over 6 inches I prefer to use the belt grinder. I really love that Edge Pro "clone" you posted, that thing is sexy and looks like it works just as good as the original.
 
Awesome you guys, definitely some creative stuff. Thanks for all of the photos of the different contraptions Lagrangian. Any time you wana talk sharpeners let me know. I love sharpeners as much as I love knives. The sharpener I made is great for smaller blades but anything over 6 inches I prefer to use the belt grinder. I really love that Edge Pro "clone" you posted, that thing is sexy and looks like it works just as good as the original.

Hi bpiatt,

I have to agree, Nosmo's clone of the Edge Pro is the prettiest of them all...
Originally he posted a picture of it here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-and-ApexPro-Pict-Heavy?p=9900090#post9900090
But then he edited that post and took it down. I happened to have saved a copy of the jpeg to my hard drive, so I still have it.

One of the interesting things about Nosmo's sharpening rig, is that he (she?) used spherical rod-end bearings that are made of polymer (plastic). They are made by the company Igus. Originally, when I prototyped out my rig, I also used Igus spherical bearings, made of plastic. They are surprisingly cheap (like $4 or something), and surprisingly good in terms of smoothness and minimal play. Unfortunately for me, I didn't read the fine print on the Igus spherical bearings I bought: I got ones which were designed to be compression fit, where the compression would intentionally reduce extra play in the bearing. Instead, I should've bought the spherical rod-ends from Igus; those are not designed to be compression fit, and so have no extra play to begin with. You can buy such Igus bearings from McMaster.com, and also Amazon.com. It's worth noting that the KME Sharpening System also uses a polymer spherical joint, although I have no idea who manufactures the one they use.

In any case, I decided to go with metal-on-metal spherical rod-ends where the slinding parts are steel and bronze. I don't know if this is the best choice or not (other possibilities include steel and teflon).

When I have time, I would like to test the rigidity and accuracy of my sharpening rig using a dial-indicator. Given that ball bearings can be made extremely precise (ie: sphericity of 25 millionths of an inch is fairly common), I figure it should be pretty good, although with the rod ends made by Heim, I did feel some slight axial play with my fingers. Some other spherical rod-ends I have (made by FK Bearings), did not have any play that I could feel by hand. But should be interesting to see how much play is measured by a dial indicator or a dial test indicator.

In terms of rigidity, I think beltman's use of the spherical bearings is among the best. He is the first one that I have seen, to use the spherical rod end so the rod is directly pushing into the ball, meaning that the joint feels mostly radial forces rather than axial forces. The spherical rod-end is much more robust in the radial direction. (My design has most of the force in the axial direction). Also, I think that beltman's design has a wider range of motion for the rods. I don't know if beltman is actually the first to try this. But after his post, I see that others are now using this design, including the new version of the WickedEdge joint system that Clay Allison is working on. I'm debating whether to switch my design over to one similar to beltman's. There is some discussion about beltman's design in my thread. Below is beltman's original thread, and then a link to some of my thoughts on it.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/809918-New-and-improved-Wicked-Edge
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/911871/tp/2/

Here is a picture, from JendeIndustries's blog showing the new WickedEdge spherical joints (see the Jende Industries blog entry for the 2012 Blade Show):
https://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/2012-blade-show/
photo274.jpg


I'm also spending some time to think more about the mathematical geometry of knife sharpening, and how to design an optimal sharpening rig. Optimal in terms of rigidity, accuracy, and simplicity/practicality. I wish I could talk to machinists and/or mechanical engineers about some of my thoughts.

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
 
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I've posted this little thing before and I'm almost ashamed to post it in this thread because it is so crude but its beauty is in its simplicity. Actually it isn't a sharpening device but I use it mostly for reprofiling. I bought a DMT coarse/xtra coarse set and needed a way to use it that would complement my sharpmaker. I made this stand out of wood to hold the DMT at 18 degrees. I can essentially reprofile a blade with it to about 36 degrees inclusive, then use the sharpmaker at 40 degrees to finish the job with microbevels.

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Hi bdmicarta,

Simple is good! :) Easier to set-up, and more reliable. If you're sharpening angles are fixed, then no need for additional complications of and adjustable mechanism.

Your "Sharpening-V" reminds me a little of this "sharpening ramp" made by ewerstruly on YouTube.com. You put your sharpening stone on the ramp, and then hold the knife flat and parallel to the ground to set your angle. In ewerstruly's version, the ramp tilt is adjustable, but of course it doesn't have to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXhrqfV5jvs&lr=1
VC2Xj.png


Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
 
Some sort of ceramic bushing that my college girlfriend's father gave me. He worked in Detroit making gigantic industrial furnaces...Holcroft Furnace I believe it was. Not sure what this was for originally but it works well. I wish I had two of them and I wish they were 15" long each but this works well.

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These are all awesome, i love seeing everyones creativity and ideas they put together.
 
My jigs require very few tools to be built and are constructed on a very small budget. I don't claim to have infinitely rigid structures but the results are close enough. If I wanted better edges I would get some industrial robot and grinding cnc machines to reprofile my knives and finish the edge using ion sputtering.

[video=youtube;wNfIjGL1BK0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNfIjGL1BK0[/video]

[video=youtube;88gRQ5R-wP8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88gRQ5R-wP8[/video]
 
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I also made sharpening ramps - they work well - I made two for two different angles -

DSC_7807.JPG


The bourbon is purely for lubrication.

best

mqqn
 
The play in your bearings is going to be less signfiicant than the fact that you are forced to put some sort of conic section on the edge because you are pivoting frome a single point rather than having a blade profile match to travel along at both ends. In other words your bevel angle is going to vary as you move along the profile of the blade, unless the radius of the blade exactly matches the distance to your pivot... So for practical purposes its always going to vary some.



Hi bpiatt,

I have to agree, Nosmo's clone of the Edge Pro is the prettiest of them all...
Originally he posted a picture of it here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-and-ApexPro-Pict-Heavy?p=9900090#post9900090
But then he edited that post and took it down. I happened to have saved a copy of the jpeg to my hard drive, so I still have it.

One of the interesting things about Nosmo's sharpening rig, is that he (she?) used spherical rod-end bearings that are made of polymer (plastic). They are made by the company Igus. Originally, when I prototyped out my rig, I also used Igus spherical bearings, made of plastic. They are surprisingly cheap (like $4 or something), and surprisingly good in terms of smoothness and minimal play. Unfortunately for me, I didn't read the fine print on the Igus spherical bearings I bought: I got ones which were designed to be compression fit, where the compression would intentionally reduce extra play in the bearing. Instead, I should've bought the spherical rod-ends from Igus; those are not designed to be compression fit, and so have no extra play to begin with. You can buy such Igus bearings from McMaster.com, and also Amazon.com. It's worth noting that the KME Sharpening System also uses a polymer spherical joint, although I have no idea who manufactures the one they use.

In any case, I decided to go with metal-on-metal spherical rod-ends where the slinding parts are steel and bronze. I don't know if this is the best choice or not (other possibilities include steel and teflon).

When I have time, I would like to test the rigidity and accuracy of my sharpening rig using a dial-indicator. Given that ball bearings can be made extremely precise (ie: sphericity of 25 millionths of an inch is fairly common), I figure it should be pretty good, although with the rod ends made by Heim, I did feel some slight axial play with my fingers. Some other spherical rod-ends I have (made by FK Bearings), did not have any play that I could feel by hand. But should be interesting to see how much play is measured by a dial indicator or a dial test indicator.

In terms of rigidity, I think beltman's use of the spherical bearings is among the best. He is the first one that I have seen, to use the spherical rod end so the rod is directly pushing into the ball, meaning that the joint feels mostly radial forces rather than axial forces. The spherical rod-end is much more robust in the radial direction. (My design has most of the force in the axial direction). Also, I think that beltman's design has a wider range of motion for the rods. I don't know if beltman is actually the first to try this. But after his post, I see that others are now using this design, including the new version of the WickedEdge joint system that Clay Allison is working on. I'm debating whether to switch my design over to one similar to beltman's. There is some discussion about beltman's design in my thread. Below is beltman's original thread, and then a link to some of my thoughts on it.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/809918-New-and-improved-Wicked-Edge
http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/911871/tp/2/

Here is a picture, from JendeIndustries's blog showing the new WickedEdge spherical joints (see the Jende Industries blog entry for the 2012 Blade Show):
https://jendeindustries.wordpress.com/2012/06/12/2012-blade-show/
photo274.jpg


I'm also spending some time to think more about the mathematical geometry of knife sharpening, and how to design an optimal sharpening rig. Optimal in terms of rigidity, accuracy, and simplicity/practicality. I wish I could talk to machinists and/or mechanical engineers about some of my thoughts.

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian
 
The play in your bearings is going to be less significant than the fact that you are forced to put some sort of conic section on the edge because you are pivoting from a single point rather than having a blade profile match to travel along at both ends. In other words your bevel angle is going to vary as you move along the profile of the blade, unless the radius of the blade exactly matches the distance to your pivot... So for practical purposes its always going to vary some.

Hi Rapt_up,

I would like to make two points, one of which is very brief, the other is more involved.

(1) Generally, we want to minimize play in guided sharpening systems just for consistency; so that each time we sharpen the knife, we get the same geometry. Your point is about when the geometry varies along the knife rather than between sharpenings.

(2) There are two cases where a pivoting-rod sharpener can make an exact and uniform angle along the knife edge. You correctly mention one of the cases, namely the case of a cone. For the cone, the knife belly is circular, and it's center is lined up through the pivot of the sharpener. In other words, if you take the pivot and project it perpendicularly onto the plane of the knife, it would land on top of the circle's center. Then, in this case, the sharpener will grind a bevel that is a right-circular cone (as opposed to an oblique cone). The angle of the bevel is the angle between the slope of the cone and it's base.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_(geometry)

However, there is a second case where the pivoting-rod sharpener will also make an exact and uniform angle. If the knife edge is a straight line (has zero belly), then the pivoting-rod sharpener will make a perfect V-edge. This is a very commonly misunderstood fact about dihedral angles, and has caused endless argument. I'd rather not get into endless arguments, so I will present a mathematical proof and also an example illustration. If any of you still disagree after that, that's fine, but I'm unlikely to continue with the discussion for very long after that. I will respond if you find a valid error in the mathematical proof, or if you have a very carefully and well done demonstration. To challenge the proof below, you will need 3-dimensional geometry at the high-school level (ie: theorems, axioms, about planes and lines, etc.), or if you have had college level linear-algebra and/or vector-calculus, that is more than enough.

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First I'll present a quick illustration. For now, please pretend that the guide-rod is a line (ie: infinitely thin) and that the sharpening stone is also infinitely thin.

In the illustration, I tried to use line-thickness to do some perspective hinting. You can think of the thick black triangle as being the closest object to the viewer. Notice the two green angles; those are the dihedral angle of the knife bevel. Notice that the guide rod positions (red) are all contained inside the plane of the knife bevel. Therefore there is no problem in sharpening a perfect V-edge.
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Second, here is the technical proof.

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Axiom1: Three non-colinear points determine a plane.
Comment: Given three points, no two of which are identical, and which are non-colinear (ie: do not lie in a line), then there is exists a unique plane through those three points.

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Axiom2: Two distinct points determine a line.
Comment: Given two points which are not identical, then there exists a unique line through those two points.

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Axiom3: Two distinct points in a plane determine a line contained in the plane.
Comment: If I pick two different points in the plane, those two points determine a line. That line lies inside the plane.

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Theorem1: A line and a point, which is not on the line, determine a plane. This plane contains the line and the point.
Proof:
Let L be a line.
Let C be a point that does not lie on L.

(Part1): Prove there is a plane P that contains the line L and the point C.
Pick any two distinct points A and B on the line L. The three points A, B, and C are distinct (P cannot be A or B because P is not on the line L). The three points A,B,C determine a unique plane P (Axiom1). The plane P contains the points A,B,C, and the line L (Axiom 1, Axiom3).


(Part2): Prove that the plane P is unique.
Proof by contradiction: Suppose there is a second plane Q, not equal to P, that contains the line L and the point C.
If we can show that Q contains three non-colinear points which also lie in P, then Q and P would have to be the same plane.
Let A and B be distinct points that lie on L, as described above, so that the points A,B,C determine P.

Let Q be a plane different from P, which is also determined by the line L and the point C.
Since Q is determined by L and C, it must contain the point C as we proved in (Part1).
Since Q is determined by L and C, it must contain the line L as we proved in (Part1).
But L contains points A and B.
So Q contains L, and L contains A and B.
Therefore, Q contains A and B.
Therefore, the plane Q contains the points A, B, and C. So Q must be the same plane as P (Axiom1).

Therefore, there is a unique plane P that contains a line L and a point C not on the line.

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Now we will apply Theorem1 to knife sharpening. Suppose our knife has a single edge which is a straight line. For example, maybe we are sharpening a straight razor, or one edge of a wood-chisel. I'll consider two cases, because the first case is much easier to understand, and then I'll look at a second case which is a modification of the first case.

Let L be the line representing the straight edge of the knife.
Let P be the plane which contains one bevel of the knife. Since the knife has a V-edge and has a straight edge, one of it's bevels is perfectly flat (ie: planar).

Simple Case:
Let's set up our sharpener so that the pivot C is in the plane P.
The plane P contains the line L and the point C (Theorem1).

For now, we will pretend our guide-rod is a line (ie: infinitely thin) and that our sharpening stone is also infinitely thin. We'll fix this later, after we understand this case. Let S be the plane which represents the surface of the sharpening stone. This means that S contains the surface of the stone as well as the guide rod itself.

Set up the guide-rod such that:
(1) The guide rod goes through the point C.
(2) The sharpening stone lies on the knife edge.

Because we placed the stone onto the knife, the stone surface, S, contains the knife edge L.

However, the plane S also contains the guide rod, and therefore, plane S contains the point C.

Therefore, the plane S contains the knife edge L, and the pivot points C.
Recall that earlier, that our knife bevel is a plane P which is determined also by the line L and the point C.

By Theorem1, the plane S and the plane P are the same plane (uniqueness proven in Part2 of Theorem1).

Notice that it did not matter where we put the sharpening stone onto the knife edge: the plane of the sharpening stone will be the same as the plane of the knife bevel.

Therefore, the sharpening stone will remain in perfect contact with the bevel of the knife and sharpen a perfect V-edge.

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In the above proof, we assumed that the guide-rod and the sharpening-stone were infinitely thin. The above proof can be modified to account for the thickness of the stone and the radius of the guide-rod. However, it is rather laborious to go through that proof. So instead of a full-blown proof, I will informally describe what happens. Basically, you can put the guide-rod in a plane which is parallel to the plane P, but offset by the thickness of the stone and the radius of the guide rod. Once you do this, the stone can always contact the knife bevel perfectly. If that makes sense to you intuitively, then no point in going through he informal argument below. But if it does not, the below is a brief sketch of what happens.

Basically, we still have the knife-edge as line L and the knife-bevel as plane P.
Let t be the thickness of the sharpening stone.
Let r be the radius of the guide-rod.

Then the distance between the central-axis of the guide rod and the stone surface is d=t+r.

Next, consider a plane Q which is parallel to P, but is a distance d away from the knife edge.

We set-up our sharpener so that the center-axis of the guide rod is always in plane Q.
Claim: We can rotate the sharpening stone around the rod axis until the stone's surface lies in the plane P.
Informal Proof: We have two parallel planes P and Q. In Q we have the center-axis of the guide rod. Let's call the center-axis of the guide rod line J.

Now let me use some 3d geometry from high school: The plane Q contains line J. Let U be a plane that is perpendicular to plane Q and which contains line J. (We can do this, because two distinct planes intersect at a line, and we can adjust the dihedral angle between the two planes until they are perpendicular.) Now the plane U will also intersect plane P at a line K. Since U is perpendicular to plane Q, it is also perpendicular to plane P (because P and Q are parallel). So the line K is parallel to line J and exactly a distance d from it. Therefore, we can rotate the surface of the sharpening stone until it contains the line K (because the stone surface is also d away from line J, the center axis of the guide rod).

p3vNSh.png


I won't prove this next bit, but if you can visualize the above, then it is obvious that not only does the stone-surface contain the line K, but because of the way we set it up, the stone surface must also be parallel to plane P. This is because line K is actually the perpendicular projection of the guide-rod onto the plane P, and the guide rod, J, is parallel to P.

Sorry if the above bit is a bit complicated to prove. It is fairly easy to understand intuitively. Basically, if we keep the guide-rod in a plane Q, then the stone can sharpen a plane P which parallel to Q, and which is a distance d away.

The conclusion is, so long as the guide rod is in plane Q, we can get the sharpening stone to perfectly sharpen a bevel in plane P. So all we need to do, is to place the rod-pivot in plane Q, and then sharpen normally.

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Discussion:

So we now know that the following two cases can be handled perfectly by a pivoting-rod system that uses a spherical rod-end (ie: pivots about a single point):

(1) A circular knife belly where the center of the circle is lined-up with the pivot center. That is, if we were to do a perpendicular projection of the pivot onto the plane of the knife, it would land on the center of the circle.

(2) A knife with a straight edge that is a line.

In general, though, a knife belly is not perfectly circular, or the pivot is not lined up with the center, etc. So there will be some variation. But the straight part of the knife edge will be fine, and you can put the pivot at a point which is aligned with the center of a best-fit circle to the knife belly. So in practice, it is still pretty good.

Sincerely,
--Lagrangian

"What grit sharpens the mind?"--Zen Sharpening Koan

P.S. I'm wondering if there are other geometries that work, but I haven't figured out the mathematics yet.
 
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my heavy duty double sided paint stirrer DMT strop. 1 micron and 1.5 micron.. if it counts :rolleyes:

This definitely counts, that's an awesome idea to use a heavy duty paint stirrer for a strop. I will be copying you lol.
 
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