Looking at Leatherman ARC and Free P4: Comments?

[Guy McVer]

Oh, the drama.

I invite anyone to go ahead and check out the Flex and make up your mind as to whether it is something you are interested in or not. Don't get hung up on tribalism or brand loyalty or some stupid internet flame war. Make a list of the things that you value and decide what best fits those criteria. Think for yourself. Everything else is irrelevant.

Flex Hands-on Initial Impressions (youtube link)

Roxon Flex vs Leatherman Arc Comparison (youtube link)

A Roxon Flex vs GOAT Multitool Comparison (youtube link)

Another Roxon Flex vs GOAT Multitool Comparison (youtube link)

Another Flex Initial Review (youtube link)

Yet One More Flex Initial Review (youtube link)

Keep in mind that the tools reviewed are not all of the available tools, and some information in the videos in inaccurate. For example, at one point a reviewer claims there is no 1/4 inch hex bit driver for the Flex. This is not true. There is even a picture of the 1/4 inch bit driver for the Flex on Roxon's web site.

 

[craytab]

Oh, the drama.

I invite anyone to go ahead and check out the Flex and make up your mind as to whether it is something you are interested in or not. Don't get hung up on tribalism or brand loyalty or some stupid internet flame war. Make a list of the things that you value and decide what best fits those criteria. Think for yourself. Everything else is irrelevant.

Flex Hands-on Initial Impressions (youtube link)

Roxon Flex vs Leatherman Arc Comparison (youtube link)

A Roxon Flex vs GOAT Multitool Comparison (youtube link)

Another Roxon Flex vs GOAT Multitool Comparison (youtube link)

Another Flex Initial Review (youtube link)

Yet One More Flex Initial Review (youtube link)

Keep in mind that the tools reviewed are not all of the available tools, and some information in the videos in inaccurate. For example, at one point a reviewer claims there is no 1/4 inch hex bit driver for the Flex. This is not true. There is even a picture of the 1/4 inch bit driver for the Flex on Roxon's web site.

Think for yourself!

(doesn't own anything from the brand, posts a bunch of links to what other people think)

Plunk down your own money my dude. Give us your take on the item, how the brand is (yes, quality varies by brand). Post up some pics. Make your own video. Let's see some side by sides with your leathermans! Pros cons compared between each of what you have used, what you use them for. Bladeforums wants to know what you think, not what 10 youboobers think.

Cuz, right now you are just promoting an item you don't have, from a brand you don't own, over items most of us are very familiar with. And you are using other people's opinions but telling us to think for ourselves. That's rich. How about you start by owning the item or even an item in the brand's lineup, then we'll talk.

Down play it by calling it "drama" and using cute little emojis all you want. But at the end of the day, you are going to need to own and have used this roxon quite a bit to get any traction here on the claims you are making. With all due respect, it is one of those "put up or shut up" type of situations. Just buy one, put some miles on it, and give us some thoughts (and pics, we love pics). Compare it to your leathermans.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

With all due respect, it is one of those "put up or shut up" type of situations.

I agree. A lot of people rag on the Arc because it's not cheap, but they don't own one, and haven't used one. I beat an SOG to death over many, many years and use my multi-tools.

I've been using the Arc for months now and really like it.

 

[shinyedges]

Think for yourself!

(doesn't own anything from the brand, posts a bunch of links to what other people think)

Plunk down your own money my dude. Give us your take on the item, how the brand is (yes, quality varies by brand). Post up some pics. Make your own video. Let's see some side by sides with your leathermans! Pros cons compared between each of what you have used, what you use them for. Bladeforums wants to know what you think, not what 10 youboobers think.

Cuz, right now you are just promoting an item you don't have, from a brand you don't own, over items most of us are very familiar with. And you are using other people's opinions but telling us to think for ourselves. That's rich. How about you start by owning the item or even an item in the brand's lineup, then we'll talk.

Down play it by calling it "drama" and using cute little emojis all you want. But at the end of the day, you are going to need to own and have used this roxon quite a bit to get any traction here on the claims you are making. With all due respect, it is one of those "put up or shut up" type of situations. Just buy one, put some miles on it, and give us some thoughts (and pics, we love pics). Compare it to your leathermans.

I agree. A lot of people rag on the Arc because it's not cheap, but they don't own one, and haven't used one. I beat an SOG to death over many, many years and use my multi-tools.

I've been using the Arc for months now and really like it.

Agreed with both posts.

An American made tool manufactured by people making a livable wage certainly cost more than one produced by China potentially in a factory by near (or actual) slave labor. The arc while not cheap is a fine tool.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

I've got a Roxon that I bought as a back-up to my back-up with a gift card. It lives deep in my tool bag and is basically a Wave clone. It's solid for the $25 it cost. I do like the actual 1/4" driver when I don't have a LM bit that fits what I need. Actually one of the reasons I keep it in my tool bag is mostly for that function. Its a bit loose, the knife blades don't snap shut enough for my liking, and it doesn't feel as well made as any of my US tools.

I don't think I would buy a premium product of more than $35 from them. I've looked at tools like that GOAT, but if I'm honest with myself, I really don't care if a tool is modular. One of things I liked most about the Free is that I didn't have any kind of bits. It limited it but it meant I didn't feel the need to pack EVERYTHING with me...just in case.

I do want an Arc. The price doesn't bother me inasmuch as I don't think I will see a huge advantage over what I already have. I see it as a good "what the hell..." purchase when I have a little extra scratch and I see one in the flesh or on sale.

These tools are expensive, and whether they are worth the price or not is a vote to be cast with your wallet. The Gerber Diesel my wife got for me for Christmas...tried to love it. The cumbersome opening, stubby drives and lack of nice but not NEEDED features like a space to crimp or replaceable cutters made it something I carried a lot but rarely used just because it is kinda meh at everything. Kind of a waste of $80, but it now lives in my desk when I need a beater at work.

For me, the Leatherman tools strike a balance between ease of use and being well made. Having handled and used my Charge TTi for the last couple of weeks, I really dunno what more I could want. The Arc will be the next on my list for sure. Like most here in this subforum, I have enough tools to use for the rest of my life. Anything I buy is because I want it. Sometimes I just want a $200+ tool because I can.

 

[Guy McVer]

I don't think you should have to buy something before you can decide whether or not you want to buy it. That's why reviews exist; they are supposed to help people decide whether or not they want to buy something by providing them with information about it. That's all I have to say for now, but there are a lot of other things I would like to say. It's just unfortunate that this is where we are. If this is a community then I think as a community it can and should do better than what I am seeing from certain members right now.

 

[Guy McVer]

I've got a Roxon that I bought as a back-up to my back-up with a gift card. It lives deep in my tool bag and is basically a Wave clone. It's solid for the $25 it cost. I do like the actual 1/4" driver when I don't have a LM bit that fits what I need. Actually one of the reasons I keep it in my tool bag is mostly for that function. Its a bit loose, the knife blades don't snap shut enough for my liking, and it doesn't feel as well made as any of my US tools.

Ummm.. what model would that be? I'm looking at their website and I'm not seeing any wave clones. Nothing with a bit driver either. Are you sure it's a Roxon? Maybe it's something older and out of production, or it's just not listed on their site for some reason. If you know the model number then I can try to look it up.

 

[craytab]

I don't think you should have to buy something before you can decide whether or not you want to buy it. That's why reviews exist; they are supposed to help people decide whether or not they want to buy something by providing them with information about it.

Agreed. Reviews can be useful. We all know where to find said reviews. What isn't useful is having reviews shoved down our throat with a ringing endorsement from a member taking a controversial stance, only to have it turn out the member has no experience with the product they are hotly promoting. You're right, this is a community. We discuss things and if something is off, we tend to police ourselves. That is what you are seeing. Sorry if it is uncomfortable but you are getting called on a viewpoint that many don't agree with and find the logic flawed (pushing so hard for an off brand tool you don't own and trashing the established tool). Yup, that don't jive.

If you truly think you are being wronged, report posts and the mods will look. Otherwise, plunk down your cash, give us your take on the tool (without trashing the arc, which you also don't own) and make this a more robust discourse.

 

[craytab]

Ummm.. what model would that be? I'm looking at their website and I'm not seeing any wave clones. Nothing with a bit driver either. Are you sure it's a Roxon? Maybe it's something older and out of production, or it's just not listed on their site for some reason. If you know the model number then I can try to look it up.

Roxon is essentially an amazon brand. They have slapped their name on things you can get rebranded with various labels. Looks like they are trying to stick to this modular branding, which is good, so long as the quality improves.

 

[Guy McVer]

Roxon is essentially an amazon brand. They have slapped their name on things you can get rebranded with various labels.

I was not aware of that. Could you show me some examples of this? That would be something I'd be interested to know about.

What isn't useful is having reviews shoved down our throat with a ringing endorsement from a member taking a controversial stance, only to have it turn out the member has no experience with the product they are hotly promoting.

I think that is a huge misrepresentation of what I posted.

I said I'm more interested in the Flex than I am in the Arc. I said what I think about it based on what I've seen so far from pre-release reviews. I bemoaned the fact that it's being manufactured in China. I then posted links to reviews and told people to make up their own minds. At no point did I ever try to hide the fact that I don't have a tool that hasn't even been launched yet.

If you are having a problem with anything that I posted about the Flex, then I would suggest that I am not the ultimate source of said problem.

Cheers.

 

[StuntDouble]

If I were willing to spend the money, I think I'd end up going with the Arc. For me, it has a more useful toolset overall. There are a couple things I wish had carried over from the P4, but ultimately they're tools I could live without.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

My mistake. It's a Rocktol Wave clone. My daughter has a Roxon M3.

They both seem to be about the same quality.

 

[Guy McVer]

My mistake. It's a Rocktol Wave clone. My daughter has a Roxon M3.

They both seem to be about the same quality.

Roxon appears to be attempting to succeed based on the merits of their own unique designs rather than just rebranding the exact same set of clones that everyone else is selling with only minor variations to the toolset and the exterior finish.

I looked at a few hands on reviews of the M3, and the design of it is definitely unique. It's interesting how they incorporated the double sided micro eyeglass bit with the driver in the handle. The bit itself was obviously taken from Leatherman though. It looks the pretty much exactly the same as the one that comes with the Wave, Charge, Arc, etc. The fit and finish of the M3 also looks to be miles above any of the Wave clones that I have seen or personally handled myself. That includes the Ozark Multiforce, a.k.a. "The Wal Mart Wave" that everyone either loves or hates. Speaking of which, there is a Hart Screwdriver sold by Wal Mart for around 10 bucks that comes with a set of double ended quarter inch ball detent hex bits. Those bits will work with the 1/4" bit drivers on all those cheap Chinese Wave clones, including the Multiforce. I figured you might like to know that since you happen to own and carry one of those clones.

Literally every business in China is subordinate to the CCP and must report to them and obey whatever they say. Things do not work the same there. Seeing a Chinese multitool company that is actually trying by putting out several of their own original designs is crazy to me. China is the land of IP theft and cheap clones. Hardly anyone bothers to come up with something original there, because there is almost no incentive to do so. It's easier to just copy what someone else created and then undercut their prices. Taking shortcuts, faking it to make it, and having the right connections to the CCP is supposedly the best way to get ahead there. When you look at it that way it's really not surprising that so much of the stuff they manufacture there is inferior garbage.

 

[craytab]

Roxon appears to be attempting to succeed based on the merits of their own unique designs rather than just rebranding the exact same set of clones that everyone else is selling with only minor variations to the toolset and the exterior finish.

I looked at a few hands on reviews of the M3, and the design of it is definitely unique. It's interesting how they incorporated the double sided micro eyeglass bit with the driver in the handle. The bit itself was obviously taken from Leatherman though. It looks the pretty much exactly the same as the one that comes with the Wave, Charge, Arc, etc. The fit and finish of the M3 also looks to be miles above any of the Wave clones that I have seen or personally handled myself. That includes the Ozark Multiforce, a.k.a. "The Wal Mart Wave" that everyone either loves or hates. Speaking of which, there is a Hart Screwdriver sold by Wal Mart for around 10 bucks that comes with a set of double ended quarter inch ball detent hex bits. Those bits will work with the 1/4" bit drivers on all those cheap Chinese Wave clones, including the Multiforce. I figured you might like to know that since you happen to own and carry one of those clones.

Literally every business in China is subordinate to the CCP and must report to them and obey whatever they say. Things do not work the same there. Seeing a Chinese multitool company that is actually trying by putting out several of their own original designs is crazy to me. China is the land of IP theft and cheap clones. Hardly anyone bothers to come up with something original there, because there is almost no incentive to do so. It's easier to just copy what someone else created and then undercut their prices. Taking shortcuts, faking it to make it, and having the right connections to the CCP is supposedly the best way to get ahead there. When you look at it that way it's really not surprising that so much of the stuff they manufacture there is inferior garbage.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

An American made tool manufactured by people making a livable wage certainly cost more than one produced by China potentially in a factory by near (or actual) slave labor. The arc while not cheap is a fine tool.

Where'd you get those cutters?

 

[Steely_Gunz]

I dunno, man. Pretty much all the off shore stuff has felt mostly just OK. I think there are some very decent tools made in China, but nothing in the tool market is blowing skirt up the way their high end knives are. My guess is that end of the day, the casim between those wanting a cheap tool and those wanting a very high-end tool where the country of origin may matter must be pretty big.

Like I can see the average guy who is comfortable spending $150 on a knife wanting something that walks and talks like a Chris Reeve buying a Kizer to scratch that itch, but there seems to be a lot less of us in here that will pay a premium on a tool that may be beaten up through abuse.

My guess is that Leatherman banks on their pedigree and reputation to justify expensive tools. I think they absolutely make great stuff, but I will concede that they seem to be pricing themselves out of the working-class market.

I see the next big revolution in tools being something like the GOAT that is a domestic company with higher end mix and match parts outsourced to spec to keep the manufacturing cost down and the Lego effect high. I don't see a lot of reason for Chinese companies to really elevate and refine their stuff just yet. You CAN get a "Wave" that is comparable to the real thing for less than $50 if you don't want a real warranty or care where it is made. I just don't see the draw in making themselves even more niche when China's big claim to fame is scale and price point.

 

[Guy McVer]

My guess is that Leatherman banks on their pedigree and reputation to justify expensive tools. I think they absolutely make great stuff, but I will concede that they seem to be pricing themselves out of the working-class market.

They still have the Rebar. It's a very popular model from what I can tell, and miraculously there aren't any clones of it that I am aware of. Nothing that comes close anyway. I mean there are old copies of the PST but that's about all. At 80 dollars I think the Rebar is the only model left that Leatherman makes which simultaneously has fairly good quality, a complete tool set, and a very reasonable price tag for the average guy. The Knifeless Rebar is a fantastic choice too, but it appears to be way less popular. It's got the scissors though, and is great option if you want to carry your own dedicated folding knife.