M2 TRYOUT!

000Robert said:
I called him first and talked to him about it. Then he gave me his email address end some photos to him. Then he tried to sell me one of their presses. LOL
But I'll accept half of the blame - I should've thought about taking it slower, earlier than I did. I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that the manufacturer cheapened the metal to save money. The old eyelets are clearly of a higher quality.
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Hi Robert,

My name is Steve Andrews, and I am one of the owners of KnifeKits. I don't get on forums much anymore, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things in case there was a misunderstanding between you and Robert Feltman concerning your split eyelets.
Our eyelets are made in the USA. We sell millions of these a year and ship tens of thousands daily. When there is a problem with eyelets, we hear about it from many customers in a short time. The last time this happened was about eight years ago when our manufacturer tried to offshore them, We figured it out almost immediately, and since then, we have had our part number to ensure that they are made in the US.

There will be splits from time to time, but they are only about 1 percent. That is why we sell 100-packs but include 101 eyelets in the bag. When splitting more eyelets than usual, the first thing to check is the dies, ensuring they are clean and do not have any burrs. The smoothness of the dies is essential because the splitting occurs one of two times. The first is the beginning of the roll. If the edge of the eyelet or the die is rough, the eyelet starts to compress before it rolls, causing it to split as it starts to roll. This can also happen from setting them too fast. The second is at the end of the roll if you apply too much pressure. It is easy to tell when you do this because not only are the eyelets split, but they are also flat. We check eyelets here with our dies when we get a new batch in, and we checked some after receiving your email and did not get any splits.

Robert wasn't trying to sell you a press, and I apologize if it sounded that way. The link he gave you (https://www.knifekits.com/vcom/ckk-riveteyelet-flaring-dies-master-series-p-633.html) is to our eyelet setting dies. We designed these and started having them manufactured to our specifications about 15 years ago. While $35 is more than the $15 you paid for yours (based on the link you sent), we know that they work. The shanks are .375 inches. If that fits your press, you don't need a new press, only new dies.

Robert was not blowing you off, nor did he think you were a kook. He did his best to help you correct the issue since the eyelets are not defective.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding between us. I value all of our customers and hate to lose you over miscommunication.

David, thank you for pointing out this thread to us.
 
KnifeKits.com said:
David, thank you for pointing out this thread to us.
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Steve, welcome to the David Mary Custom forum. You are very welcome, and thank you for taking the time to clear things up with my friend 000Robert 000Robert . He's been very generous with his time in this project for us, so I truly appreciate your respectful and gracious message to him here. And thank you for the great product and service you have been providing me these past few years.
 
KnifeKits.com said:
Hi Robert,

My name is Steve Andrews, and I am one of the owners of KnifeKits. I don't get on forums much anymore, but I wanted to clarify a couple of things in case there was a misunderstanding between you and Robert Feltman concerning your split eyelets.
Our eyelets are made in the USA. We sell millions of these a year and ship tens of thousands daily. When there is a problem with eyelets, we hear about it from many customers in a short time. The last time this happened was about eight years ago when our manufacturer tried to offshore them, We figured it out almost immediately, and since then, we have had our part number to ensure that they are made in the US.

There will be splits from time to time, but they are only about 1 percent. That is why we sell 100-packs but include 101 eyelets in the bag. When splitting more eyelets than usual, the first thing to check is the dies, ensuring they are clean and do not have any burrs. The smoothness of the dies is essential because the splitting occurs one of two times. The first is the beginning of the roll. If the edge of the eyelet or the die is rough, the eyelet starts to compress before it rolls, causing it to split as it starts to roll. This can also happen from setting them too fast. The second is at the end of the roll if you apply too much pressure. It is easy to tell when you do this because not only are the eyelets split, but they are also flat. We check eyelets here with our dies when we get a new batch in, and we checked some after receiving your email and did not get any splits.

Robert wasn't trying to sell you a press, and I apologize if it sounded that way. The link he gave you (https://www.knifekits.com/vcom/ckk-riveteyelet-flaring-dies-master-series-p-633.html) is to our eyelet setting dies. We designed these and started having them manufactured to our specifications about 15 years ago. While $35 is more than the $15 you paid for yours (based on the link you sent), we know that they work. The shanks are .375 inches. If that fits your press, you don't need a new press, only new dies.

Robert was not blowing you off, nor did he think you were a kook. He did his best to help you correct the issue since the eyelets are not defective.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding between us. I value all of our customers and hate to lose you over miscommunication.

David, thank you for pointing out this thread to us.
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Hi Steve. I already sent you an email. First off, I didn't mean that he thought I was a kook, but that there's no telling how many 'real' kooks that yall have to deal with on a daily basis. When I was a mechanic, we had to deal with kooks from time to time. I contacted yall as a courtesy to help you ward off many people having problems. I've bought a lot of my stuff from you guys over the years and I've been very happy, until now with the bad eyelets.

I also mentioned David and this thread to Robert when I talked to him on the phone, but I guess I forgot to when we started emailing.

Many people are probably still using the older eyelets as I also was. I wasn't even aware of the problem until I set the eyelets that David provided in the M2 Tryout knife sheath. I also have shown photos of the split eyelets and have bags of them on my bench. But the eyelet that I set that is from my older batch, set perfectly.

As I also told you in the email, my Press and the eyelet dies are practically brand new - I've also provided you with photos of them. I have rarely used them - I mostly set snaps with my press. That is also in the email to you. And your dies won't fit my press. The top die in my press screws into the press. Your dies looked to me like they slide into a hole in the press. But I guess I could be wrong about them.

There's no misunderstanding, I have bags of your eyelets and I will be lucky if 1% of them are actually good, not counting the eyelets that I've had for a couple of years or so. And every time that an eyelet splits, it's another eyelet that I have to remove. But there will be more people complaining as they run through the old stock and get into the new stock. I really find it hard to believe that I'm the only person in the country that is getting split eyelets. If I am the only one, then that will raise an interesting question - why me?

All I know is that my old eyelets set perfectly, and the new eyelets split. Anything after that is just speculation.

I have some more eyelets coming from another company. We'll see if they are any good.

David, thanks for also bringing this issue to knifekits. Most people wouldn't say anything - I'm not most people.

I'm heading off right now. I'll be back later to night. I changed my mind. My back is killing me so I'm not going anywhere tonight unless it's an emergency.
 
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I'll make a deal with you, Steve K KnifeKits.com , send me your eyelet press and dies. If it works with these eyelets, I'll pay you for it plus shipping. But if the eyelets split like they do in my press, you pay return shipping so I can send it back to you.
I'll make a video of using the press, and my press. I've haven't made a video before, but I'm sure that I can figure it out.
And I believe that I've been a good enough customer over the years that you'll trust me to pay for it if it works well. Thanks.
 
000Robert said:
I'll make a deal with you, Steve K KnifeKits.com , send me your eyelet press and dies. If it works with these eyelets, I'll pay you for it plus shipping. But if the eyelets split like they do in my press, you pay return shipping so I can send it back to you.
I'll make a video of using the press, and my press. I've haven't made a video before, but I'm sure that I can figure it out.
And I believe that I've been a good enough customer over the years that you'll trust me to pay for it if it works well. Thanks.
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Hi Robert,

I understand where you are coming from, but our large customers order from us regularly, so they would not be using old eyelets. As I said, we average shipping more than 10,000 eyelets per day, so if there is a materials issue, we hear about it fairly quickly. We tested the eyelets on our press with our dies, so there is no need to send you a press and dies for you to test. I did not video the test, as I did not think it was necessary. If anyone here needs to see a video to prove that I am not lying about our tests, I can do so, but if you search the internet, you will see that we have a stellar reputation in our two decades in business.
 
David Mary said:
Steve, welcome to the David Mary Custom forum. You are very welcome, and thank you for taking the time to clear things up with my friend 000Robert 000Robert . He's been very generous with his time in this project for us, so I truly appreciate your respectful and gracious message to him here. And thank you for the great product and service you have been providing me these past few years.
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Thanks, David!
 
KnifeKits.com said:
Hi Robert,

I understand where you are coming from, but our large customers order from us regularly, so they would not be using old eyelets. As I said, we average shipping more than 10,000 eyelets per day, so if there is a materials issue, we hear about it fairly quickly. We tested the eyelets on our press with our dies, so there is no need to send you a press and dies for you to test. I did not video the test, as I did not think it was necessary. If anyone here needs to see a video to prove that I am not lying about our tests, I can do so, but if you search the internet, you will see that we have a stellar reputation in our two decades in business.
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Yeah Steve, but Robert told me that yall buy the eyelets by the millions. People making sheaths and holsters to sell probably buy the eyelets by the thousands and may not have gotten to the newer eyelets yet. I myself am just a hobbyist, so I don't make many sheaths and holsters. And for some time now I have been making OWB pancake sheaths that have belt slits cut and don't require eyelets, unless I add one to use for a lanyard.

If you don't want to take the deal, then that's fine. But it is curious that you haven't offered to send me some new eyelets in place of the bad ones that I bought from you. Maybe it is just some of the eyelets that you bought were bad and I'm just the unlucky one that received them. You also haven't offered for me to send these back so that yall can examine them to see what is wrong with them... I find that very curious.

Once again, the only reason that I even brought this all up was to try to help you guys stave off having many angry customers. The monetary aspect of it isn't enough to worry about as far as I'm concerned.
 
David Mary said:
Let's take any more Ckk customer relations debates to the GB&U if they need to continue in public.
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I understand, David. We can just go back to emails. I really don't think that it's worthy of GB&U - it's just a few eyelets after all.
 
tinfoil hat timmy said:
🤨
so you like the knife then?
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I'm assuming that you mean, do I like the steel? The knife is a little small for my tastes. I like to have at least a 4" blade, and really prefer 4.5" or more.
I'm impressed with the M2 steel! This is a thin blade, with .0015" thickness behind the edge, and I profiled the bevels to 10dps. I expected more damage to the bevels from cutting the wood than I observed.

I'll get back on reprofiling the bevels to 20dps later today and have some photos and stuff tomorrow, maybe sooner. I visited my grandbabies yesterday, and Wednesday I played around with some new lock picks, and stuff that I bought - lockpicking is another hobby of mine.
 
I got the M2 Tryout knife reprofiled and sharpened up at 20dps. I sharpened her to 600 grit. I'll take her out in a couple of hours and do some cutting. I'll make the tip look better after this cutting session. I must say that the M2 cuts pretty sweet with diamond stones. The steel also produces a well-defined burr. Here are some before photos of the bevels:



M2-20dps-600g-1a.jpgM2-20dps-600g-2a.jpgM2-20dps-600g-3a.jpgM2-20dps-600g-4a.jpgM2-20dps-600g-5a.jpg
 
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