M390 vs D2. Is it worth it?

[EatingSarma]

I think you're going to be very happy with the M390 steel, one of my favorites.

I think so too from all I've read about it

Lots of great comments and information in this thread.

D2 is a fine steel. I don't personally prefer it, but if it were in a design that I wanted, I'd buy it.

I agree about that, D2 served me very well for a long time and it could keep doing so.

The issue here wasn't really the steel, but the design of the knife.

 

[EatingSarma]

I agree with you 100% It is funny seeing people (especially on Reddit) shitting on it when not long ago high end knives were made from 440c quite often. People seem to forget its pretty solid stats (see below) Obviously numbers arent everything but I mean come on...unless it a super hard use blade thats a pretty solid lineup.

C 1.50%
SI 0.30%
Cr 12.00%
Mo 0.80%
V 0.90%

According to reddit it'll microchip as soon as you cut anything with it, and it is impossible to sharpen LOL...
While they are fetishizing AUS8 and 8Cr13MoV LOL...

Don't get me wrong, but D2 can get sharp, they just suck at sharpening, I also never had chipping on my D2, but I did suffer rolls with softer steels.

It's also funny seeing Cold Steel fans (or what's left of them) suddenly fall in love with 8Cr13MoV

Anyways, people are strange, and often looking for excuses just to get something better.

I decided to get a new EDC mainly because Berus 1 has smaller blade and larger handle and is more of a gentleman's knife with much better fit and finish and ergonomics. If there was more affordable version of it in D2 - I'd definitely pick that over M390...

 

[StoneAndSteel]

Why if you dont mind me asking is m390/20cv your favorite? And for what use?

I’d liked my light use prior to my conversion, but the final thing that won me was a 20CV PM2 that I carried for 6 weeks in the woods. It was very wet and humid, and I was able to keep a really great edge for six weeks just stropping it on my pant leg. It was cutting a huge variety of things (cardboard, nylon webbing, 550 cord, etc.) and was being borrowed a lot by the end due to it being the only knife around that still had an edge. I’m not saying “it’s the best,” “it’s the only,” or whatever. Just that it worked really well for me and so far it’s my favorite stainless.

 

[EatingSarma]

This reminds me on my temporary student job at warehouse...

Everyone was either spending a few razor blades a day for their boxcutters or some used their knives and would use boxcutters once these got dull...

I was the only one whose knife would still have the edge at the end of the day.
I still used boxcutter from time to time, mainly if there was lots of staples in cardboard or because this knife was a lot thicker so it made it harder to do some cuts.

But I did hit steel hinges with the edge more than once tho, and there was never any visible damage.

My favourite things to cut vere stretch foil and nylon... my knife would still just sail through it at the end of the day, while it'd be a chore with other knives.

So, yeah, I really love D2 steel

 

[DocT]

The Viper Bersus 1 is a cool looking little knife, but the blade is overly thick and short. It would not be a fantastic slicer. I personally wouldn't pay the $150 they want for it over here. There are better options for a lot less money, in my opinion.

 

[bdmicarta]

Now, is the M390 so much better than D2?
What are the advantages?
Does it justify fact it costs literally 5x more?

D2 is less corrosion resistant and has less edgeholding. However I don't think very many non-enthusiasts could tell the difference. I own and carry a knife in D2 and it works very well for me. For me M390 would be worth a little bit more than D2 but not twice as much, certainly not 5 times as much.

 

[EatingSarma]

The Viper Bersus 1 is a cool looking little knife, but the blade is overly thick and short. It would not be a fantastic slicer. I personally wouldn't pay the $150 they want for it over here. There are better options for a lot less money, in my opinion.

I'm OK with that, I like some thickness in a knife, especially when it comes to fixed blades.

But, I remember, D2 Manly Patriot also has 4mm stock thickness and is still very slicey, because it's full flat grind.
Viper Berus 1 is also 4mm thick, with even wider blade, allowing more space for that full flat grind to make it more slicey.

Price-wise, it's around 120€ here, which is about the same price ESEE Izula costs here.
And knowing the price of Izula in the US... I'd feel like an idiot buying it over this.

They would both make a good EDC, just Izula isn't stainless, and is a bit larger.
Izula is more of EDC/Tactical/survival knife all in once. This is a gentleman's knife, stainless, no coating, very stylish and nicely sized.
With Izula, I'd have to oil it to prevent corrosion, especially during summer. Even tho lip balm and such other tricks are more convenient, it's still a hassle and my blade is greasy, and whatever I cut will also get greasy.

Edge retention wise, I won't really mention it. I don't doubt I wouldn't be able to get through the day without having to touch up 1095 (those days would be rare), but M390 blows it out of water when it comes to edge retention.
To me, edge retention of D2 was just adequate, as it might lose razor edge, but would still keep the working edge at the end of the day.

 

[Dr Rez]

I'm OK with that, I like some thickness in a knife, especially when it comes to fixed blades.

But, I remember, D2 Manly Patriot also has 4mm stock thickness and is still very slicey, because it's full flat grind.
Viper Berus 1 is also 4mm thick, with even wider blade, allowing more space for that full flat grind to make it more slicey.

Price-wise, it's around 120€ here, which is about the same price ESEE Izula costs here.
And knowing the price of Izula in the US... I'd feel like an idiot buying it over this.

They would both make a good EDC, just Izula isn't stainless, and is a bit larger.
Izula is more of EDC/Tactical/survival knife all in once. This is a gentleman's knife, stainless, no coating, very stylish and nicely sized.
With Izula, I'd have to oil it to prevent corrosion, especially during summer. Even tho lip balm and such other tricks are more convenient, it's still a hassle and my blade is greasy, and whatever I cut will also get greasy.

Edge retention wise, I won't really mention it. I don't doubt I wouldn't be able to get through the day without having to touch up 1095 (those days would be rare), but M390 blows it out of water when it comes to edge retention.
To me, edge retention of D2 was just adequate, as it might lose razor edge, but would still keep the working edge at the end of the day.

Any 1095 not run super soft should be able to keep sharpness for a full day when regularly stropped. Perhaps not if you cut a ton of abrasives but for most stuff it will certainly maintain an edge if cared for

 

[sodak]

Any 1095 not run super soft should be able to keep sharpness for a full day when regularly stropped. Perhaps not if you cut a ton of abrasives but for most stuff it will certainly maintain an edge if cared for

It's a shame that most makers don't run 1095 up to 65 HRC. The performance difference is staggering. Same with M2 HSS at 66.

 

[Dr Rez]

It's a shame that most makers don't run 1095 up to 65 HRC. The performance difference is staggering. Same with M2 HSS at 66.

I think the market is just not there. It would have to be for either thin kitchen knives or very specialized knives made for people who can handle it at that hardness.

 

[Dr Rez]

Real world use and experience for me is different

Well it isnt because of the steel chemistry then...All things being equal s30v WILL always have more edge retention.

In my unprofessional opinion however heat treat and blade geometry play a far more important role when comparing the two.

 

[c7m2p3]

Well it isnt because of the steel chemistry then...All things being equal s30v WILL always have more edge retention.

In my unprofessional opinion however heat treat and blade geometry play a far more important role when comparing the two.

Yes there are a lot of variables. Heat treat and blade geometry are huge ones. Another underlooked one is sharpening or sharpening medium. Some people will get a knife with a bad factory edge and then formulate an opinion on the steel based on that. Its their first time experiencing some type of steel and the edge doesn't come from the factory as sharp as they would like and they spend the next few years going around saying "In my experience steel XX sucks! It wouldn't get through a single session of breaking down cardboard!" even though they were working with an uneven, factory cooked edge that would have been bad no matter what steel it was done on.

Another thing is sharpening materials and competence. There are still a lot of people that will buy high vanadium steel and then try and sharpen it on natural stones that they have been sharpening their 1095 on for decades. Of course this goes poorly and they come away with a similar take. "This steel won't take an edge! I can do x,y and z with my old 1095 blades this new fancy steel is terrible" even though its not the chemical make up of the steel that is at fault, its the wrong tool for the job. You can't buy a Lamborghini and treat it like your lawn mower and expect to see performance.

 

[Smiling]

Yes there are a lot of variables. Heat treat and blade geometry are huge ones. Another underlooked one is sharpening or sharpening medium. Some people will get a knife with a bad factory edge and then formulate an opinion on the steel based on that. Its their first time experiencing some type of steel and the edge doesn't come from the factory as sharp as they would like and they spend the next few years going around saying "In my experience steel XX sucks! It wouldn't get through a single session of breaking down cardboard!" even though they were working with an uneven, factory cooked edge that would have been bad no matter what steel it was done on.

Another thing is sharpening materials and competence. There are still a lot of people that will buy high vanadium steel and then try and sharpen it on natural stones that they have been sharpening their 1095 on for decades. Of course this goes poorly and they come away with a similar take. "This steel won't take an edge! I can do x,y and z with my old 1095 blades this new fancy steel is terrible" even though its not the chemical make up of the steel that is at fault, its the wrong tool for the job. You can't buy a Lamborghini and treat it like your lawn mower and expect to see performance.

Some people still believe that super expensive steels should be able to stay sharp forever while also being easy to get sharp, which makes no sense...

 

[PsychoSword]

The premium steels like M390, Elmax, ect. are cool, but 154CM was a premium out of reach steel for me back in the 90's and I only get that version of a knife nowadays if I have to. I have D2 and even AUS-8 blades I still carry these days. They were both premium back in the day, and honestly compared to most things out there, still are. just like 154CM. These days I believe that quality D2 blades are underrated and that might come out eventually. A2 is nice, but needs a bit more maintenance than D2. Of the blades I've had in M390 and Elmax, I did prefer the Elmax.

 

[sodak]

Some people still believe that super expensive steels should be able to stay sharp forever while also being easy to get sharp, which makes no sense...

Well nothing stays sharp forever, but these steels - in the proper geometry - are very easy to get sharp. Much easier than a soft steel that keeps burring. I have a CPM 10V at 64.5HRC that I can get from butterknife dull to max sharpness in 2 - 3 min, no problem.

 

[Chronovore]

I use 14c28n as my edc fixed blade, which has lower edge retention than d2...

it serves me very well and I hardly ever need to touch it up, & stropping brings it right back, so it takes very little time and effort ...

While 14C28N should have lower edge edge retention, it doesn't always. When done well, D2 or K110 will have good edge retention. In the last couple of years, we've seen a lot of hype over budget D2 coming out of China, obviously cashing in on the standing reputation of D2. Usually, the performance of these knives falls short of those expectations. Chinese D2 can vary a lot and some companies do better than others. Speculation seems to focus on issues in heat treatment but there are also concerns about the consistency or purity of the starting steel. At the same time, Chinese companies using 14C28N import it from Sandvik and that steel is apparently much easier to get right. So we sometimes see budget knives in 14C28N outcutting budget knives in D2.

M390 is another steel that can vary a lot. We've seen a bunch of "budget" M390 from various companies that cash in on the super steel's reputation but don't quite live up to expectations. The "bad" M390 still seems to be a lot better than the "bad" D2 but the take-away is that we are comparing a spectrum of performance for both of these steels. It really comes down to the individual knife or manufacturer.