Marbles Woodcraft Knife

[geothorn]

Geothorn, is that left-handed sheath original?

Yes, it is.

Funny, I'd never really noticed that it was a left-handed sheath. That sounds pretty strange or rare for a mid to late-1940s knife! Wouldn't something like that be a special order...?

GeoThorn

 

[Codger_64]

Look closer at the picture of the Westerns from the fifties, and the Schrade Cut Co #360 pre-1942. I have several older rigid knives from the 1930's-1960's with left-handed sheaths. I have no idea of the significance.

P.S. I hope that, indeed, the knife pictured above was patterned after the Marbles/Western Woodcraft. I posted the photo because that knife's blade shape looks similar to the original Woodcrafts, the Skinner, in particular, and the age range is about right for when copies/knock-offs would have been running around in the marketplace.

Anyway, if you gentlemen believe that the above picture isn't what you believe is representative of a Marbles/Western Woodcraft knock-off by Kinfolks I'll remove it. I learn a lot of good information here at BladeForums, so, I don't want to dilute or otherwise mislead this thread.

Please don't remove it. We are exploring ancestor patterns, and the relationship of your Kinfolks (1927-1957) knife is quite obvious to me. It is very relevant to this discussion. And in fact, some of these knives may well be made by Marbles and private branded for the other companies.

Cutlery owners of yore were a breed apart from what we envision being the norm in modern business. They socialized, shared patterns and production advice, sometimes even their facilities and workers. I have this on good authority from Mr. Paolantonio of Colonial, as well as others who knew the players way back when. So when we think of a knife pattern as a "knockoff", it isn't always true. Less so in the early to mid part of the last century than today.

Codger

 

[JD Mandrell]

Look closer at the picture of the Westerns from the fifties, and the Schrade Cut Co #360 pre-1942. I have several older rigid knives from the 1930's-1960's with left-handed sheaths. I have no idea of the significance.

Possibly because a pistol was worn on the right-hand side?

Or some other piece of equipment???

 

[Gossman Knives]

Possibly because a pistol was worn on the right-hand side?

Or some other piece of equipment???

That's true. Alot of the cowboy action shooters want left hand carry for their bowies because they are right hand shooters.
Scott

 

[Codger_64]

Also if you notice, many earlier knife tang stamps were on blade left. Drawn from a right hand sheath, the stamp would not be displayed. When I wear a sheath (or revolver holster) on the left, I still want a right hand sheath or holster for a cross draw. Even though it looks odd to an observer. I am not ambidexterous. But you are right, a left mirrored sheath or holster looks more natural.

Speaking of natural, what could be more natural than an early 20th century woodsman wielding this knife!

It is a marble's Gladstone stamped Woodcraft, with Brown Shoe Company on the reverse tang, and an additional blade stamp advertising Buster Brown Shoes! How many of you have this one?

Codger

 

[Codger_64]

George Washington Sears (1821-1890), under the pen name of "Nessmuk" (Wood Duck"), wrote a general book on camping, Woodcraft, 1884.

OK, there is an earlier source for the popularization of the term "woodcraft". I have no doubt that it was used even earlier. I need to reread my Leatherstocking Tales anyway!

"Anon! Hector! Here pup!"

Codger

 

[Blues]

George Washington Sears (1821-1890), under the pen name of "Nessmuk" (Wood Duck"), wrote a general book on camping, Woodcraft, 1884.

Kephart actually dedicates his "Camping & Woodcraft" to Sears/Nessmuk:

To The Shade Of Nessmuk In The Happy Hunting Ground

 

[geothorn]

Just to let you all know, I posted the photo of the Kinfolks knife in The Bernard Levine Knife Collecting and Identification Forum, trying to find out more about it, and the left-handed sheath.

I don't know why some sheaths are left handed, others right handed. I've never seen ads or catalogs that mentioned this.

The knife probably is 1942 or later, because of the plastic pommel.

BRL...

Nowadays, a left-handed sheath would be a special-order deal, if one were even available at all. So, I was curious as to why left-handed sheaths were so seemingly often found, like in Codger_64's Western Cutlery advertisement image:

GeoThorn

 

[Codger_64]

I have a couple of Schrade Walden fixed blades and an Imperial Bowie Hunter with left hand sheaths, and I still don't know.

I have managed to pick up a couple of Woodcraft knives since this thread started, including the Marbles Woodcraft I first posted (Pat. 1916), and this Western L88.

I've also seen this pattern as a Remington RH32, a Jean Case, and a Sears J. C. Higgins (likely a Western L88 also). I've seen a couple more of the Kinfolks too. One Jean Case had a left sheath, one a right.

And here is a 1925 ad for Union Cutlery's Ka-Bar. See anything familiar?

Codger

Gotta get one of those Rems too!

 

[tarmix101]

Great post Codger. Lots of good input on the Marbles brand. I found a review here in the "knife reviews" forum:

http://www.nevamar.com/DesignProfessionals/category.asp?cl=1&cg=8&new=0

It is discussing the Field craft mainly, but there was some good info in it. After reading this thread and doing some research on other sites/forums, I ordered a woodcraft. I figured it was about time I use a U.S. built camp knife. The two knives I use currently are from Sweden. Like a lot of you, I prefer carbon steel, and traditional designs. Can't wait to put it to use. Thanks for the inspiration

Actually any excuse I can find to buy a new knife is a good on to me

 

[geothorn]

I have a couple of Schrade Walden fixed blades and an Imperial Bowie Hunter with left hand sheaths, and I still don't know.

I have managed to pick up a couple of Woodcraft knives since this thread started, including the Marbles Woodcraft I first posted (Pat. 1916), and this Western L88.

I've also seen this pattern as a Remington RH32, a Jean Case, and a Sears J. C. Higgins (likely a Western L88 also). I've seen a couple more of the Kinfolks too. One Jean Case had a left sheath, one a right.

Those are some really great looking knives! You're starting to slowly transform me into an antique knife collector!

And here is a 1925 ad for Union Cutlery's Ka-Bar. See anything familiar?

Gotta get one of those Rems too!

There certainly were a heck of a lot of knives making use of left-handed sheaths, running from the 1920s to the 1950s. I'm starting to think that people who would be carrying a hunting knife of the Woodcraft type, back then, probably had a handgun attached to their right hip, at the same time.

That's one percentage that (probably) hasn't changed, the proportion of right-handers to those who are left-handed. So, what would explain why most knives now have right-handed sheaths, but, between (at least) the 1920s to 50s, left-handed sheaths figured so prominently, apparently, in knife advertisements...?

GeoThorn

P.S. I'm not disparaging antiques, by any means. I am one, after all.

 

[Codger_64]

I think that the left hand sheaths were worn by right handers who wanted the knife out of the way of their dominent hand until needed. When I carry a rifle or shotgun, I have to slide my right hand sheath around my belt to the rear slightly so the stock doesn't bang the knife handle. But.... I think this is one of those questions there is no single answer to. Heck, even BRL didn't know!

These Woodcraft pattern knives and their associated ads will make a nice display arrangement. Anyone have the Marble's 1916 patent number?

Codger the Antique Knife Collector (double entendre there!)

A double entendre is a figure of speech similar to the pun, in which a spoken phrase can be understood in either of two ways. The first, literal meaning is an innocent one, while the second meaning is often ironic or risqué and requires the hearer to have some additional knowledge. Although an expression made of French words, it is not correct modern French; the French say double sens ("double sense [or meaning]") for such phrases.

 

[docgra]

Codger:

If you are seriously interested in an RH32, send me an email. My dad acquires it in the 30's by selling either Cloverine Brand Salve or Grit.

Sorry... the sheath almosted lasted through my Boy Scout days in the 50's-60's, but this convex blade finally worked its way out.

I don't mind negotiating with another "mature" knife lover... I'm leavind my son approximately 100 OTHER knives, including my Beck WSK (mint, unused, custom sheath also made by Beck).

 

[geothorn]

I think that the left hand sheaths were worn by right handers who wanted the knife out of the way of their dominent hand until needed. When I carry a rifle or shotgun, I have to slide my right hand sheath around my belt to the rear slightly so the stock doesn't bang the knife handle. But.... I think this is one of those questions there is no single answer to. Heck, even BRL didn't know!

You're right. If the eminent Mr. Bernard Levine doesn't know a reason for the prevalence of left-handed sheaths in the 1920s, 30s, 40s, and 50s, then how would any of us mere mortals know...?

This is a question that I wish I had asked my grandfather. I believe that there is probably some simple explanation for the prevalence of left-handed sheaths, so simple, in fact, that it wasn't perceived, during that earlier and less complex time, that any explanation for left-handed sheaths was needed or necessary. It wasn't because there were more left-handers....

--------------------------------

If I remember correctly (IIRC), back from my cowboy and indian movie-watching days, if a cowboy chose to wear his six-gun on his left side, in order to do a cross-draw, his six-gun was still carried in a right-handed holster, but, it was just worn on the left side. In recently watching a vintage cowboy/indian movie, I saw that the protagonist's pistol belt was actually buckled in the back, allowing the full length in the front of the belt to carry cartridges.... Sorry, just wandering the recesses....

These Woodcraft pattern knives and their associated ads will make a nice display arrangement.

I think that you have quite a collection already, Codger_64! Are you opening a museum, or, filling a spare room? I've really enjoyed seeing your collection of ads and drawings of Woodcraft-patterned knives!

Anyone have the Marble's 1916 patent number?

Sorry, I haven't a clue. I wonder if Marble ever stamped any of their Woodcraft knives with the patent number...? That may require more viewing of images...or, getting more Woodcraft knives, if they are available.

Codger the Antique Knife Collector (double entendre there!)

A double entendre is a figure of speech similar to the pun, in which a spoken phrase can be understood in either of two ways. The first, literal meaning is an innocent one, while the second meaning is often ironic or risqué and requires the hearer to have some additional knowledge. Although an expression made of French words, it is not correct modern French; the French say double sens ("double sense [or meaning]") for such phrases.

Well, I'm enough of an antique to already know how to double my entendres. "Young whipper-snapper," for me, was too many decades ago to really enjoy counting...

GeoThorn

 

[JD Mandrell]

Great post Codger. Lots of good input on the Marbles brand. I found a review here in the "knife reviews" forum:

http://www.nevamar.com/DesignProfessionals/category.asp?cl=1&cg=8&new=0

Are you sure that's the right link, I'm getting a place that sells floor tiles?

 

[Thomas Linton]

. . .
If I remember correctly (IIRC), back from my cowboy and indian movie-watching days, if a cowboy chose to wear his six-gun on his left side, in order to do a cross-draw, his six-gun was still carried in a right-handed holster, but, it was just worn on the left side.
. . .
GeoThorn

Precisely so. For a right-hander, the "right-handed" sheath can be worn anywhere on the belt that space allows. The knife will always come out with the edge down when drawn with the right hand. Put the same knife in a "left-handed" sheath, and the knife comes out edge up when drawn with the right hand bno matter where the sheath is worn on the belt. So I don't think the explanation is the wearing of a sidearm on the strong side by right-handers.

If this issue arose with a knife intended to be a "weapon," then the theory that a "fighting" knife SHOULD be drawn edge up ("Practical Grip") might explain what you have observed, but that hardly fits with woodlore/hunting knives.

Quite a mystery.

(Ed.: Wasn't there a practice for years that shoes displayed in store windows were always size 7 [7 1/2?]. Maybe there is no rational rerason.)

 

[geothorn]

Precisely so. For a right-hander, the "right-handed" sheath can be worn anywhere on the belt that space allows. The knife will always come out with the edge down when drawn with the right hand. Put the same knife in a "left-handed" sheath, and the knife comes out edge up when drawn with the right hand bno matter where the sheath is worn on the belt. So I don't think the explanation is the wearing of a sidearm on the strong side by right-handers.

If this issue arose with a knife intended to be a "weapon," then the theory that a "fighting" knife SHOULD be drawn edge up ("Practical Grip") might explain what you have observed, but that hardly fits with woodlore/hunting knives.

Quite a mystery.

Yes, it's kinda bugging me. However, knowing that there may not be an answer to be found, it means that I can't let it bug me. Maybe I need to read a few more Zane Grey novels, where one cowboy asks another why he wears his knife on the left...?

(Ed.: Wasn't there a practice for years that shoes displayed in store windows were always size 7 [7 1/2?]. Maybe there is no rational rerason.)

Maybe size 7 or 7 1/2 shoes, in mens' sizes is/was so unusual that it was known as the "demo size"...? If size 7 shoes aren't likely to sell, in a long while, it makes for less display changes, and, no one will mind getting the dusty/shelf-worn pair, being so happy to find shoes small enough to fit them...?

GeoThorn

 

[geothorn]

Anyone have the Marble's 1916 patent number?

Sorry for being off-topic, but what will the patent number help you to discover? I have an old lighter that I can't date, but, it does have a U.S. Patent number on it:

Can someone determine the date of a patent, and what part of the item was being patented? Where would one be able to check patent numbers?

Thanks,

GeoThorn

 

[Codger_64]

With the patent number you can access the U.S. Patent Office Website and see the actual patent drawings and text. You see who the inventor was, when it was filed, approved, and what their claims were, as well as when it was first used (often before the filing date).

Here is a list of the first patent numbers issued in each calendar year since 1836. It will be helpful to anyone looking up patent dates. Yours is circa 1914.

1836..............1
1837............110
1838............546
1839..........1,106

1840..........1,465 1880.........223,210 1920........1,326,899
1841..........1,923 1881.........236,137 1921........1,364,063
1842..........2,413 1882.........251,685 1922........1,401,948
1843..........2,901 1883.........269,820 1923........1,440,362
1844..........3,395 1884.........291,016 1924........1,478,996
1845..........3,873 1885.........310,163 1925........1,521,590
1846..........4,348 1886.........333,494 1926........1,568,040
1847..........4,914 1887.........355,291 1927........1,612,700
1848..........5,409 1888.........375,720 1928........1,654,521
1849..........5,993 1889.........395,305 1929........1,696,897


1850..........6,981 1890.........418,665 1930........1,742,181
1851..........7,865 1891.........443,987 1931........l,787,424
1852..........8,622 1892.........466,315 1932........1,839,190
1853..........9,512 1893.........488,976 1933........1,892,663
1854.........10,358 1894.........511,744 1934........1,941,449
1855.........12,117 1895.........531,619 1935........1,985,878
1856.........14,009 1896.........552,502 1936........2,026,516
1857.........16,324 1897.........574,369 1937........2,066,309
1858.........19,010 1898.........596,467 1938........2,104,004
1859.........22,477 1899.........616,871 1939........2,142,080

1860.........26,642 1900.........640,167 1940........2,185,170
1861.........31,005 1901.........664,827 1941........2,227,418
1862.........34,045 1902.........690,385 1942........2,268,540
1863.........37,266 1903.........717,521 1943........2,307,007
1864.........41,047 1904.........748,567 1944........2,338,081
1865.........45,685 1905.........778,834 1945........2,366,154
1866.........51,784 1906.........808,618 1946........2,391,856
1867.........60,658 1907.........839,799 1947........2,413,675
1868.........72,959 1908.........875,679 1948........2,433,824
1869.........85,503 1909.........908,436 1949........2,457,797

1870.........98,460 1910.........945,010 1950........2,492,944
1871........110,617 1911.........980,178 1951........2,536,016
1872........122,304 1912.......1,013,095 1952........2,580,379
1873........134,504 1913.......1,049,326 1953........2,624,046
1874........146,120 1914.......1,083,267 1954........2,664,562
1875........158,350 1915.......1,123,212 1955........2,698,434
1876........171,641 1916.......1,166,419 1956........2,728,913
1877........185,813 1917.......1,210,389 1957........2,775,762
1878........198,733 1918.......1,251,458 1958........2,818,567
1879........211,078 1919.......1,290,027 1959........2,866,973

1960........2,919,443
1961........2,966,681
1962........3,015,103
1963........3,070,801
1964........3,116,487
1965........3,163,865
1966........3,226,729
1967........3,295,143
1968........3,360,800
1969........3,419,907
1970........3,487,470
1971........3,551,909
1972........3,631,539
1973........3,707,729
1974........3,781,914
1975........3,958,241
1976........3,930,271
1977........4,000,520
1978........4,065,812
1979........4,131,952
1980........4,180,867
1981........4,242,757
1982........4,308,622
1983........4,366,579
1984........4,423,523
1985........4,490,855
1986........4,562,596
1987........4,633,526
1988........4,716,594
1989........4,794.652
1990........4,890,335
1991........4,980,927
1992........5,077,836
1993........5,175,886
1994........5,274,846
1995........5,377,359
1996........5,479,658

Codger

 

[geothorn]

Geez, Codger_64! Thank you for all of your kind, generous, and patient typing! Thank you, also, for helping me date my, apparently, Grandfather's lighter!

P.S. LOL.... There's one for sale on Ebay, along with a 1914 date on it, right now! So far, with 21-hours left, it's only gotten a $19.88 bid. I guess that I have a lighter with more sentimental rather than monetary value.

GeoThorn

P.P.S. The Hahway lighter has an interesting mechanism inside it. When one presses the button on the front it lifts the lighter's lid, which automatically scratches the flint across the sparkwheel, and voila, it's lit.

It runs on lighter fluid and flints, like a Zippo, but, no sparkwheel needed to spin in order to light it. Kind of an automatically lighting lighter.

The fuel storage seems improved over a Zippo because the lighter's wick is protected within a tube built-into the lid, and filling the lighter is accessed by removing a screw in the bottom. There is no case to remove so there are fewer ways for the lighter fluid to evaporate.

It still works just fine.