Martial Arts and Survival

Joined
Nov 24, 1999
Messages
136
I'm not a martial arts expert, but I've always wanted to learn ever since I was a little kid (I'm now 45). I would like to introduce my 8 year old son to martial arts at some point; I think he could use the discipline and focus that martial arts can provide, and my wife and I both could benefit also.

I saw an interesting article in the paper the other day about a local Aikido martial arts teacher and realized that their are so many different forms of martial arts that it seems mind boggling.

So do any of you Survival experts practice any Martial Arts ?

What forms do you recommend ?

How have you benefited from studying the martial arts, especially when it comes to survival practices ?

Thanks guys and gals !



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AirMojo the Airgunning Harmonica Man
 
Combat-oriented martial arts have done wonders for me in terms of understanding myself and my relationship to the environmanet around me. Self-awareness combined with awareness of my surroundings...it's a state of existence that can be applied anywhere -- especially the wilderness.

Also, training in combat martial arts has taught me a lot about my own fears, and how to overcome them and use them to my benefit. Facing your fears is a big part of survival in the wilderness. Again, similar things.

I believe the two paths are very closely related -- but the caveat: only if you are training in a self-defense oriented martial art that forces painful introspection and forces you to "get past it" to improve. That's where self-acceptance and self-confidence come from. There are not many arts that do this, and then, even *within* those arts, there are not many teachers who have really "walked the walk." Dojo-training and real-life fighting are not the same, and if your teacher doesn't understand this, you may end up dead because of what you were taught in the dojo. I'm ver yserious on this note because I have seen the tragic results of this kind of thing.

I had trained in Tae Kwon Do (TKD) in my youth through teens, then later JKD and some Tai Chi. TKD was a fun sport, but I learned early on that it was so sport influenced, it didn't "kill the ego" enough for me to be realistic about myself: I thought I was dangerous and almost died on a few occasions before I woke up and realized I was nothing!

JKD gave me more realistic "kick ass" training, but lacked in the sprituality & self-development aspect for me. Tai Chi was great for introspection, but lacked the "kick ass" part.

It wasn't until I discovered Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu/Ninjutsu, as interpreted and taught by my teacher, Greg Kowalski, 10th dan, that I found an art that really delivered for me on all fronts. Greg has been through the wringer -- he also was a highly ranked karate practitioner who, in the history of Japan, was the only *non-Japanese* to be captain of a Japanese karate team -- in Japan! And he was a champion in Japan! Plus he has had many real-life encounters, and is still around to talk about it. BTW, he is a primitive-skills expert, too (lucky me!).

Anyway, anyone: feel free to email me and I will happily point you in the direction of some good Bujinkan teachers.

Hope this helped,

Brian.
 
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[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 12-26-2000).]
 
I think "sport" karate, TKD, or whatever is FINE for an 8 year old! It's a good starting place, provided a good instructor and dojo. By "good" I mean a psychologically balanced person rather than some of the ego-manical crazies out there. Brian mentions TKD didn't dampen his "ego" as much as kid. At 8, some kids need their ego to develop so it can be "killed" later on. You need to closely monitor your kid and how he reacts to the training. Don't be the "ugly" dojo parent -- drop the kid off at class and take off (training as childcare), go to a tournament and screamed "kill that kid!" (kid's training as vicarious experience) or whatever. It's a fine line to help kid develop a healthy as opposed to a raging ego.

When you kid gets older (you say when since you know him) and more responsible, you may want to get him involved in more "combat" oriented arts.

Just my .2. I have two boys 6 & 9. Neither is interested in the practice yet. I won't push them into it either.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Well, I don't like to miss an opportunity to advance my cause;

For knives, I practice the Spanish style, variously known by the self-referencial names of el cuchillo or la navaja, or under the general headings of destreza or El Nobilisimo Arte De La Esgrima.(Spanish word from a German root, "skirmjan", meaning "to brandish", if you were wondering) Also reffered to as tirar a la navaja, when using a navaja that is. Much as they play at a sport, they strike or fence at a weapon. Psychologicaly curious. Good art anyway.

Sevillian Steel sucks and in no way accurately reflects this art at all, if you are interested and read Spanish, I reccomend going right to the source, Manual Del Baratero, O Arte De Manejar La Navaja, El Cuchillo, Y La Tijeras De Los Gitanos. by Marion de Rementaria, published in Madrid in 1849.

For unarmed, I do boxing. Not the modern, watered down and rendered safe by lame rules and gloves sporting version that still manages to give good account of itself, I practice the older, traditional combative styles. There's a world of difference.

No illegal strikes or moves, or rules of any sort really, and just about everything everybody thinks boxers don't do is actualy used, for instance elbow strikes, eye gouging, throat crushing, low line kicks, stomping, jumping up and down on fallen opponents, and so forth; though the offensive base is still the punch, only it's a penetrative vertical punch struck bareknuckled at specificaly vulnerable points, backed up by good grappling skills.

It works quite well. It's made short work out of Billy Badass more times than I can count, and it's humbled Asian stylists who thought they were unchalenged in the area of unarmed combat.

If I had to reccomend only one source on the combative style of boxing, it would be Edmund Price's Science of Self Defence, published in 1867 in New York. Awesome book, excelent info and an irreverent sense of humor. A favorite quote, regarding close quarters fighting, called fibbing;

"After securing his head in this position you may pound away upon it very pleasantly, with the other occasionaly changing.

It will be altogether needless to say that we are reffering more particularly to your pleasure, than that which your opponent may enjoy during the operation; as singularly enough this affectionate fashion of bestowing your favors, seems scarcely so agreeable to the recipient as it may be to yourself. In spite of his dislike, this may however be persisted in, either in the Prize Ring, or in a personal "scrimmage," whenever you have an opportunity for paying him such a delicate attention. If handsomely done, it will by no means improve his beauty, as it is tolerably certain to impair his temper."

The English stuff is good too, but tends to be more sober and technical. Price has a great sense of humor. Huh, Colonials...

But I'm getting off topic I suppose. How does this carry over into survival, besides obvious benefits of improving agility and physical fitness?

Well, one of the first things a boxer learns is to keep his cool and never strike a blow until he has thought of it's follow-up. What better survival philosophy could there be?

 
Airmojo,

JRF, Sing, and Snickersee have all delivered great perspective on this and it really rounds out the answer (there is no one answer, only perpectives).

I'd like, in the end, to echo JRF's excellent point: find out what you and your son want out of martial arts -- then go right out to find it.

Good luck, and let us know how you progress!

Best,

Brian.

[This message has been edited by Brian Jones (edited 09 December 1999).]
 
Thanks guys !

I'm going to start by first checking out what kind of classes are available in my local area (and YMCA's) that are not too far from home, and go from there.

Thanks for your insights what to look out for too!



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AirMojo the Airgunning Harmonica Man
 
As the above posts make clear, the martial art you choose depends on what you are looking for. If someone is just starting out, I would reccomend learning some simple hand-to-hand combat techniques that you can actually use, and keep in good physical condition, Then consider a 'martial art'.

As far as "Survival" applications of so-called martial arts goes, its better to learn how to fight first. Thats taking "survival" to imply that you want something to use in the event that you would have to "fight for your life." In that sense the Jeet Kune Do (JKD) Concepts school of thought is probably the best commercially available standardized approach. Realistic combat tactics through four ranges (kicking, boxing, trapping, and grappling) and realistic knife and stick fighting. This is assuming you want to find a 'school.'

Otherwise working along the lines of the Applegate/Fairbairn school of thought, you can teach yourself effective combat tactics with a training partner, using some of the excellent instructional material available on video from James Keating and others. Something to do on your own with the kid that doesnt cost as much, is just as useful, and more streamlined than the fomal dojo fare.

The mental discipline and focus of any martial art is a survival asset. And in some survival situations where you find yourself "waiting" it is good to know some kind of form, or solitary physical exercises that focus the mind and keep the body in shape. Michael Echanis reccomends this as one of the assets of knife fighting, to provide the individual with something to focus on and occupy himself in a productive way if in a captive or stranded situation, where you can do nothing but wait.

Reccomended books:
"Kill or Get Killed" by Rex Applegate
"Get Tough" by W.E. Fairbairn
"The Knife Fighting Encylcopedia" by W. Hock Hockheim

Reccomended Videos:
"Knife Craft" vols 1-3 by James Keating
"Drawpoint: Reverse Grip Knife Fighting" 1-3 by James Keating
"Jun Fan Kickboxing" vol 1-2 by Paul Vunak (Jun Fan is JKD)

Basic stuff.

------------------
"The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes.
So do thinkers who cannot change their opinions;
they cease to think."
-NIETZSCHE

 
Another aspect to consider here:

What would you do if attacked by animals? How would you fight different animals off if they got to you? How do different species attack?

Learning how to protect your head, torso, and limbs, etc., plus fast, effective footwork can save your life. The fighting principles of timing, distance, angling, and position (which is more general way of describing the four ranges that James mentioned above) all apply here...

What kinds of strikes are damaging to different species physiology?

Also, martial arts can improve your balance and rebounding skills and help keep you out of trouble from things like falls, or if branches, rocks, or trees come down towards you. If you know how to fall properly, whether rolling or breakfalls techniques (called ukemi in Japanese martial arts), you can reduce or prevent many injuries, including twisted ankles.

There are many aspects to consider...

Best,

Brian.
 
I just noticed you said your son is 8. He may not be ready for Fairbairns "Timetable of Death" or Keating's KNIFE CRAFT 3!

But he's definately old enough for some good boxing, lowline kicking, and takedown moves. On someone his own size that is.
 
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[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 12-26-2000).]
 
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[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 12-26-2000).]
 
JRF,

I posted on animals -- why don't you go ahead and start a thread on CQB/H2H with Animals -- we'll get all sorts of fun responses!

Best,

Brian.
 
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[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 12-26-2000).]
 
I'm a firm believer in being able to defend oneself, especially when growing up in the late 50's and 60's when there seemed to be 10 times as many kids running around the neighborhood (and I lived in the country!). It seemed we were always getting into some sort of fist fight or wrestling match. My son has yet to be in any kind of fight, but I await the day it happens. Sometimes it takes a fight to enlighten a young innocent child.

My father started me in archery when I was 5, and I grew up climbing the many apple trees and other trees that surrounded our home. My brothers and sister and I were always swinging from the Tarzan swings that we would hang from the big maple trees in our front yard. I had one of those pull-up bars that mounts securely in a doorway. All of these activities helped develop upper body strength. It seemed that I use to run and ride my bike non-stop during the summers--didn't have much TV, computers, and games back then. In high school I could do dozens of pull-ups when most kids couldn't barely do one or two. I could also climb the peg-board up and down several times; showing off one day on a dare, I even managed to climb it using my fingers instead of the hand-pegs.

A friend of the family son was killed in Vietnam, and she gave us a lot of things that he had when he was a kid. One of those items was a punching bag (overhead speed bag type). My dad mounted it on the basement ceiling, and I use to pound the hell out of that big leather bag--I use to make the whole house shake, but my mom and dad never complained of the noise. I didn't really have any kind of technique at the time, until an exchange student from Australia (he was checking out my sister!)came down the basement to see what I was doing. He had some boxing experience and quickly showed me some basics to get a rythymic beat going. The bag was too big for a real rapid beat, but it helped develop the reflexes and power needed to punch.

Fortunately, I have not had to do any kind of fighting since I was about 14, and those fights usually ended quite quickly once the opponent came to his senses. Being pigeon toed, I could usually out run and out dodge most of my friends and classmates (the pediatrician told my mother that being pigeon-toed would make me a faster runner). I have always tried keeping in shape--this does get harder now that I'm 45, mainly due to time limitations (why the hell are we so busy all the time!?).

Several years ago, I bought a speed bag that mounts on a wall (a real piece of crap!), but my wife use to have a fit when I started to work out on it and the whole house would shake, pictures would be tilted every which way, and trinkets and things would come flying out of the printers trays hung on the walls. So needless to say that didn't last too long. But plans are in the making for mounting it outside to a tree (I've just been inspired!). Who knows what the neighbors might think (fortunately they are few and not too close to the house).

All this rambling means is that, yes its good to know how to handle oneself, and everyone should get some kind of exercise (I prefer a workout that strengthens one's defensive skills). Ever since I saw the movie "Billy Jack", and the Bruce Lee movies, I have been intrigued with the martial arts, but never seemed to have gotten around to exploring them. Having so many interesting hobbies doesn't help either!

My son has little desire to learn how to defend himself at this point--he's too busy playing and turning into a Pokemon addict. But I await the day that he comes home from school after getting into a fight, most likely provoked by some bully. The self-defense seed will then be planted, and the journey will begin...


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AirMojo the Airgunning Harmonica Man

[This message has been edited by airmojo (edited 10 December 1999).]
 
I train in Chinese martial artists (a.k.a. kung fu). However, I will be the first to admit that finding a truly good kung fu school is very difficult. I have been blessed, both here and back in Taiwan. Both of my kung fu teachers emphasized power development, traditional knowledge, fighting applications/free-fighting, and health.

Many people see a bad kung fu practitioner, group, or school, and draw the conclusion that all kung fu is for dancers. Like any art worth learning, one must dig deep. Prior to learning kung fu, I trained in Kenpo karate from age 13 through 20 (I'm 36 now), plus some Judo. I pretty much knew what I wanted out of kung fu, and the fact that kung fu is merely an umbrella term for a multitude of martial arts as different from each other as night and day.

With rare exceptions, however, IMO kung fu is not for young children. Certain training methods, if done incorrectly or w/out the proper guidance, can cause serious health problems. Also, unlike most sport-oriented martial arts, true kung fu is difficult or impossible to teach en masse (for example, having 30 people learning the same movements all perfectly in unison). The teacher must regularly monitor each student's progress, and the student becomes more responsible for his own training. This means he can't just come in to class 2 - 3 times a week as his only training and expect to see results.

Regarding potentially harmful training methods, I am referring to specialized training not necessarily given to all students. These include specialized hand conditioning methods (i.e., so-called "iron palm"), Qi Gong (specialized breathing/postures/energy circulation), forearm/shin hardening, etc., plus the appropriate external herbal medicines for such training.

Please note that there are many karate schools that masquerade as kung fu schools. If interested in kung fu, please seek out advice or help from sources knowledgeable in Chinese martial arts.
Jim
 
Airmojo,, I think that you have been the beneficiary of some excellent advice.As such Ill try not to be too repetitious but notice that there was a common thread of people here being exposed to many different arts/teachers..I think that that is important.Also as far as youngsters go I think that traditional martial arts are great for devloping discipline,confidence and health. Define what it is you seek. If it is artform/health then any traditional system with a legitamate instructor is fine..If self-preservation is your goal it gets a bit more complicated. A combat oriented art must have more realistic training. For example,,if you were to go into any traditional school and ask one of the higher ranking belts (another story within itself!) and ask him to show you a defense against a front kick, roundhouse kick combination, 90% of them will be able to show you a hunderd different techniques. Now ask him to defend against a flying tackle or a highly motivated haymaker! Most of them revert back to their first day in the dojo. Why? What are you more likely to be attacked by on the street? Training thats why..You must train in an emotional atmosphere that prepares you for combat as much as possible.Train situations not just techniques.Lets take chest pushes for example, any "self-defense school" will show you fifty techniques in the comfortable confines and respectful atmosphere of your school among friends..Does this sound like the Psychopath that is gonna push you then drill you then stomp your face? Try this instead,,to begin have your partner come up and verbally assault you. I mean get right in your face(where you can smell his breath)and tell you that you are a @##%^!! and really be vulgar and nasty..How does that make you feel? Scared?,mad,? .This all plays a role in how you will respond so train that way and find out how you respond to a given situation,forget the technique for now..Now have him start shoving you and telling you he is gonna rip you face off..How does this make you feel? How does your body natuarally move when you are shoved hard? DO you fall backwards when pushed? Where do your hands go? If they naturally fly upwards then your next techniques should be built around that natural response right? Cause thats what you're gonna do when it's for real. Now perform your technique..Can you see the difference here? Also we have the attacker wear macho gear or something so you can really drill him.I failed at being brief yet was probably inadequate at proving my point(there is so much more to this topic). If you seek self-defense combat find an instructor that Knows how to "Walk the Walk" as Brian puts it and trains you with the psychology of the predator in mind as well as the human body's natural response to a violent confrontation..You can gain this knowledge through experience and a lot of bad memories of situations that could have (or did) land you in jail or the hospital,or we as instructors can try to simulate the street experience in a semi-controlled environment so you can increase you chances of responding to a violent attack..Remember, there are no experts and avoid know it all type instructors that claim to be black belts in 50 different arts. Instructors learn from students just like students learn from them..Remove ego, train hard, be honest with yourself and you can't lose!!Just my 2 cents..Rob
 
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