Mercator K55K and the history of lockback knives?

[Pilsner]

Which book(s) exactly are you referring too? Or is this just something you imagine might be found in these books?

No imagination required. If you look at Haggard, Doyle, Wells, Buchan et al, there are several examples of what I satirised (not that it really needed satirising). For the German style locking clasp knife, if my memory serves then Buchan is probably the one to look at first. But that is a lot of novels to plough through for one or two allusions to a Mercator style knife! Good luck if you take the plunge...

 

[KHarper]

It seems no one paid any attention to this, but early 1700's.

And it seems that neither of you paid attention to my original post where I said:

And by "lockbacks" I mean the type as used on the Buck 110 and other modern knives, not ratchet locks or picklocks, or other types like they used on najavas, etc."

As far as I am aware, the navaja uses a totally different type of locking mechanism, a ratchet lock, IIRC. Hence the Spanish onomatopoeical word for the click-click-clack of a ratchet-lock knife opening. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

 

[KHarper]

No imagination required. If you look at Haggard, Doyle, Wells, Buchan et al, there are several examples of what I satirised (not that it really needed satirising). For the German style locking clasp knife, if my memory serves then Buchan is probably the one to look at first. But that is a lot of novels to plough through for one or two allusions to a Mercator style knife! Good luck if you take the plunge...

I just wasn't clear if you had actually read that or not. I've been reading Doyle the last week actually, and at least in the Holmes stories he never mentions "German style" knives, but he does mention "clasp knives" and "sheath knives" - in one story I noticed they say the dead man was found with "a sheath knife beside him", but later when they are getting the full story from the killer after apprehending him, he says "when he came at me with his clasp knife in hand", I noticed the discrepancy. But I don't think Doyle knew a whole lot about weapons in general. In another story, Holmes is investigating a murder where there has been three shots fired but only two "barrels" (sic) of the revolver emptied. In the bushes outside he finds a spent cartridge, and is highly pleased to discover "the second revolver was fitted with an ejector". Perhaps there is some highly-obscure type of ca. 1900 revolver I've never heard of that auto-ejects spent shells as they are fired, but I think more likely Doyle just was confused about the meaning of the term "auto-ejector", which in fact only means that the shells in the cylinder automatically eject when the gun is opened, which a person is very unlikely to do after firing a single shot (especially in this case, where the man high-tailed immediately after the shot was fired). Say he HAD for some reason opened his revolver after firing it, you'd find 5 loaded rounds and a single spent case, unless the user stopped to pick up the loaded ones. Or possibly he was confused about these new-fangled "automatic-loading" pistols that were just coming into use around then, which would indeed leave a spent case behind...but cannot accurately be called "revolvers".

 

[KHarper]

Offhand, I think Sidehill is right with Sheffield being the first rocking bar knives -

Smith's Key trade directory 1816 posted by Jack Black -

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Circa 1830's - 1850's -

Waynorth posted this pic years ago of a good assortment of 1800's - early 1900's rocker bars -

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I'm curious, are the ones with the protrusions on the back of the handle also rocker-bar locks, or are they what is called "pick lock" types? I don't know what those are, but I imagine them to be a type you lifted a latch, instead of pushing a lever, to unlock the blade. I've seen similar lumps on rocker-bar locks, but they were much further back on the handle, or were cosmetic only. I also can't imagine the use of some of those attachments, like those ones with the kind of spade-shaped blades on them. Something to do with taking stones from hooves, perhaps?

 

[KHarper]

FYI... Historical bbackground

Production Video

Sorry, I only just got a chance to watch these. Very interesting and informative.
Several things: first, it only just barely dawned on me that the name "Messerschmitt" probably means "knifesmith" in German. I had no idea; kind of appropriate considering the fighters they built during WWII.
Second, I was surprised to hear him say that they tend to have blade play; mine has very, very little. Most of what I can feel comes from the flexion of the thin blade, maybe the rivet, more than what I think of as "blade play"
Likewise, I don't understand what he means by "significant pressure" needed on the locking bar; on mine, it is in order with other lock-back knives I have. Not noticeably different, except for being set more forward, and sticking up further (which could theoretically cause it to accidentally unlock someday, but I'm really not worried about it).
I'm glad to see they are still assembled by hand after all this time. Now I just wonder if the blades are machine-made or not.

 

[tltt]

I'm curious, are the ones with the protrusions on the back of the handle also rocker-bar locks, or are they what is called "pick lock" types? I don't know what those are, but I imagine them to be a type you lifted a latch, instead of pushing a lever, to unlock the blade. I've seen similar lumps on rocker-bar locks, but they were much further back on the handle, or were cosmetic only. I also can't imagine the use of some of those attachments, like those ones with the kind of spade-shaped blades on them. Something to do with taking stones from hooves, perhaps?

No, those are just mid-lock rocker bar knives with big humps. Pick Locks, as you noted, you pick up a locking tab at the front of the knife that fits in a notch or over a pin with your fingers. You need strong fingers to open of them -

1830's - 1840's Wragg picklock bowie -

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French picklock fishtail dagger -

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The French and Spanish knives use a similar type of lock, but use a ring to help pull up the lock -

Modern Cold Steel Kudu with this old mechanism -

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The French, Spanish, and Italians (and a lesser extent English) also used many varieties of levers sometimes to lift the lock -

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[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

The “pocketknife” page on Wikipedia says there were lockback knives in 15th century Spain.

It actually says they were "lock blade" knives, not lockback. Which makes sense since the Navaja isn't a lockback.

The notion that Buck invented the lockback is probably based more on the popularity of the 110 (to the point that "buck knife" became a generic term for a lockback folding knife) than on actual fact. The Mercator and, to a lesser extent, the Laguiole (which was the in-between stage in the evolution between slipjoint and backlock) are the oldest ones. In the US, there are three patents, Nordlow in 1894, HG Johnson in 1897, and Rohrer in 1919, that are instructive. The Nordlow lock isn't a strictly a backlock, since the activation switch is on the side, but the lock itself functions similarly. The Johnson lock is the old-school lockback mechanism with the lock release toward the middle of the knife. The Rohrer lock is is essentially what is used in a Buck 110, with the release moved to the butt-end of the handle.

 

[Citizen John]

And it seems that neither of you paid attention to my original post where I said:

As far as I am aware, the navaja uses a totally different type of locking mechanism, a ratchet lock, IIRC. Hence the Spanish onomatopoeical word for the click-click-clack of a ratchet-lock knife opening. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me.

You are correct on the click,click,click ratchet, a very positive strong lock that takes two hands if you want to hear the click,click,click. Otherwise lift the lever/clasp which disengages the ratchet and the blade swings open quietly and silently. Short story: My son bought my Navaja "whale shaped" knife in an Indian Market. It was the seller's personal knife and he said these knives are or were popular there and used to strike fear into an opponent when they hear the ratchet mechanism go click, click, click in the dark. I think the guy was a Muslim. This is a very old knife marked "World Wide" and "Lucky Star icon on one side and "maker marks" icons on the other. It has brass furnishings including the liners and the steel is an exceptional high carbon that sharpens easily with a fairly thin geometry angled from the top of the blade to the cutting edge of its' 4 &1/2" blade. The scales appear to be ivory at least in color, they may be ivory. This was a find by my son who knows that I like old knives. I would like to know more about the steel if anyone has researched this. I would not part with it.

 

[Citizen John]

You are correct on the click,click,click ratchet, a very positive strong lock that takes two hands if you want to hear the click,click,click. Otherwise lift the lever/clasp which disengages the ratchet and the blade swings open quietly and silently. Short story: My son bought my Navaja "whale shaped" knife in an Indian Market. It was the seller's personal knife and he said these knives are or were popular there and used to strike fear into an opponent when they hear the ratchet mechanism go click, click, click in the dark. I think the guy was a Muslim. This is a very old knife marked "World Wide" and "Lucky Star icon on one side and "maker marks" icons on the other. It has brass furnishings including the liners and the steel is an exceptional high carbon that sharpens easily with a fairly thin geometry angled from the top of the blade to the cutting edge of its' 4 &1/2" blade. The scales appear to be ivory at least in color, they may be ivory. This was a find by my son who knows that I like old knives. I would like to know more about the steel if anyone has researched this. I would not part with it.

Like I said: I would like to know more about the steel and knife if anyone has researched this. There are a couple on ebay like mine but not as good a quality scales.

 

[dosagaki]

Found not too long ago, A K55K with all the paint removed. No bail and tang stamped 'ICEL'. No country of origin, nothing on the spine. Rust and pitting makes me believe this knife dates to WWII. 'ICEL' is a Spanish cutlery firm, with its roots back to 1939. Oh, no bail, just four domed rivets. Now the rear of the handle has a 'red' spacer that the blade tip strikes against when closing. I am told that this 'red' spacer indicates an old version and it is a lock back. I wonder and ponder what I have here? Fully functional, tight and great walk and talk. Sorry but I am not familiar with this site's method of photo insertion

 

[Hashishiin]

Love it, love the original idea behind this. To me, this is a style of knives that is very unique in that 1. The design is over/near 100 years old, very classic 2. Very beautiful and pleasing to the eye and 3. Still made traditionally, still truly budget, still a good, functional knife that I would recommend.
The others I include on this list are the.. Opinel, Higonokami, MAM (Portugese Opinel, actually was around before Opinel, but Opinel did not rip them off, it was a difference of a couple years), the Bali style, Douk-Douk (oldest of the bunch, being invented in 1929), SAK of course. These are so cool. If anybody has anything else to add to this list, please tell me about it. Here's my collection of such traditionals

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sunday-go-to-meetin-knife.1885618/#post-21392825

I have a large Higonokami (favorite size) that is not there because I am taking a spot of rust off, and the balisong, Opinel no. 6 and MAM are cut off.

Laguiolle! Need one of those. Also, Mikov fish knife, that is a very, very old design. Classic one that I have no excuse to not have.

It seems no one paid any attention to this, but early 1700's.

A Navaja is not a "lockback" knife, nor is it the same kind of knife as this. This was a gentleman/officer utility knife, right, and later a hood's knife in the Bronx

But I carry mine as like a nice, gentlemanly type knife. Would like to mod one to make it a "gravity knife", like the old school hoods did, just for fun.
I love these knives. 1869, I think they were invented. I always called them the 110 before the 110, the predecessor, ha. Though of course I'm not saying it's the first locking pocketknife. I saw friction folders from ancient Rome, I'm sure somebody slapped a rudimentary lock on something long before we have discovered.

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

Posts about the Mercator always make me smile
Why?... Well, I just see them as such a cool knife that has pretty much remained the same as when they were first offered, and have such a cool history. Yup, a very cool knife that just about any knife enthusiast can appreciate

I have a few Mercator knives in my collection, and I've also enjoyed giving some out as gifts