Mini Crusader

T

TnTom

Joined
Jul 29, 2014
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[/URL][/IMG]Just joined the forum and not sure how I managed to miss it for so long. I just finished playing at the forge and came up with my Mini Crusader Im calling it.
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This one is some 1095 hammered out and hardened to 59Rc. Im doing a scaled up version of this forging with a blade about 24"

Ive gotta go check this place out I think Im going to love it.
 
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Welcome to Shop Talk and to Bladeforums. Nice smithy you got there. Nice project on the dagger.


That is a version of the Fredrick's Cross, which is often done with a rail road spike. It is a lot of fun and looks like magic to people who watch one forged. Great idea doing it in 1095 square stock. 3/4" stock should forge out into a nice sword. 1" stock would make a nice decorative crusader.

Make one with a longer up-arm ( 6-8" up-cut and 3-4" down cut with 1" overlap ) and leather wrap the upper arm as the handle (maybe with wooden scales under the leather) when done. It should make a really nice dagger or short sword.
 
bladsmth said:
Welcome to Shop Talk and to Bladeforums. Nice smithy you got there. Nice project on the dagger.


That is a version of the Fredrick's Cross, which is often done with a rail road spike. It is a lot of fun and looks like magic to people who watch one forged. Great idea doing it in 1095 square stock. 3/4" stock should forge out into a nice sword. 1" stock would make a nice decorative crusader.

Make one with a longer up-arm ( 6-8" up-cut and 3-4" down cut with 1" overlap ) and leather wrap the upper arm as the handle (maybe with wooden scales under the leather) when done. It should make a really nice dagger or short sword.
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I found this history of the cross which makes me think it would have been first made around the 13th Century. The history behind this cross goes back to the days of the knights in shining armour era in england. A blacksmith from america went to Englad in the early 1970's and and either did or participated in an archaeoligical dig in an ancient blacksmith shop. He found one of these on his trip buried in the floor from were it had been dropped or discarded and eventually covered with dirt and coal dust. He brought it back, cleaned it up and good and figured out it had been done from a an unfolding process from slits chiseled in the metal. The secret to the lost cross had been lost for nearly 600 years had been rediscovered and every blacksmith tries to teach younger blacksmiths the technique how to make this one piece cross so its never lost again.
 
I have seen that "history" pop up recently. I don't know how true it is. I think the story and the current name came from Christoff Frederick, a European blacksmith, who taught the method at a US blacksmithing seminar ( ABANA?) about 20 years ago. His method makes a cross with sort of Apostle's cross shape in the opening. From what I was told, Frederick's crosses have been popular for about 100 years. I am pretty sure I have seen them made since before 1970.

Whatever the story, the project is a common training project for blacksmiths, since it uses several of the basic forging techniques that need to be learned - piercing, slitting, drawing, shaping, upsetting, twisting.
 
bladsmth said:
I have seen that "history" pop up recently. I don't know how true it is. I think the story and the current name came from Christoff Frederick, a European blacksmith, who taught the method at a US blacksmithing seminar ( ABANA?) about 20 years ago. His method makes a cross with sort of Apostle's cross shape in the opening. From what I was told, Frederick's crosses have been popular for about 100 years. I am pretty sure I have seen them made since before 1970.

Whatever the story, the project is a common training project for blacksmiths, since it uses several of the basic forging techniques that need to be learned - piercing, slitting, drawing, shaping, upsetting, twisting.
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I think 1970 was when the archeologist found the cross and buried in a dig site blacksmith shop and studies determined it was forged about 600 years ago. but that wouldnt make sense wouldnt it have rusted away by now. Who knows!
 
I had been told long ago that the RR spike cross was created by a smith who re-purposed RR spikes around 1900. Since the basic procedure of opening a double slit is not new or unusual in ornamental blacksmith work, I doubt it is a "lost art" rediscovered forty years ago....but as you say, "Who knows." Many pre-internet things are sort of lost today since there were no permanent records or books on such things until recently. I have been told by those who study such things that in the 1950s there were less than a dozen books on knifemaking.
 
zaph1 said:
Here's video of one being created, if you're interested:

[youtube]A2NKcbCAcXk[/youtube]
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Wish folks and their video making would include some light of some sort. Cant tell how he does the splits and what is done with the head of the rr spike. There isnt a good end product view.
 
That video was shot unplanned and unknown to me by someone about 11PM during open forge time at Ashokan a while back. I was working with almost unusably rusted tongs that were not the right shape for working a spike. It was a pleasant surprise to see it.

I do the slitting of the spike on the band saw ( I slit up a batch and keep some in my forge bag for impromptu demos like that video). I slit from the back side upward about 3.5" ( start about 1" up from the head), turn the spike 90°, and then slit from the top down about 3". The slits have to overlap by about 3/4" to make the diamond in the center.

To start the forging, I bring the head up to heat and drop the spike in the hardy hole. I forge out the head into a flat base that will make it stand up. I hate to say I invented anything, but to date I haven't found anyone else doing that prior to my demos. Other smiths left the head rounded and glued the spike on a wooden base. Mine stand on their own forged base.
Next, the whole spike is brought to heat and the first flip is done to 90°.
The tips are separated and spread apart.
Then, the rotation of the first flip is completed and the arms are all forged out and straightened. The hardie hole is very useful when doing the arm straightening.
Decorative texturing and shaping can be done, or it can be left as-is.
A little adjustment of the alignment to the base makes it stand up straight and on its own.

Here is an old post I put on a discussion about these six or so years back:
I make those Frederick's crosses as demo items (and for sale) at forging demos. I do one additional thing that really makes them unique. ( They also make fantastic gifts)
I drop the spike (at forging temp) in the 3/4" hardie hole and forge the head flat ,before starting to open the slits. When done, the cross stands on the flat surface. It even makes the base of the cross have a mound with a step to it.

Some other tricks:
Make two sets of tongs. One that holds the head, and another set that holds the square shank above the base while going over the head.

Make the cut upward from the head from the back side of the head (the side that has the smallest lip). This way the base will project out the front side of the cross, and show the best surface ( the face without the scallop cut will be forward).

After flattening the head, open the cross like this -
Bring the spike to a good heat and stick the tip in the hardy hole bending down to open up the slit toward the head. Bend to 90 degrees. Put the hot cut in the hardie and open up the slit from the tip on the edge. Tap down to open this slit, remove the hot cut and stick the top piece in the hardy hole, bending the top up fully. Moving to the anvil surface, open flat both slits. This can all be done in one heat, two if you are not used to the procedure.

Make a texturing hammer out of an old brick layers, small ball peen, or machinist's hammer. It should have a 3/4" cross peen shaped tip , about 1/8" thick, that is slightly rounded (similar to a chasing/raising hammer), and a small ball peen ( about 1/2" round) on the other end. After the cross is open and straight, go over the surfaces with this hammer. It will texture the metal to look like old wood, and hide the saw marks.

Shape the top arm to match the side arms of the cross as needed until it is aesthetically pleasing.
Stacy
 
I appreciate the detail. I have made numerous using standard square stock but Id have to see a few pics of the RR spike to see how you deal with the head. do you have any pieces you have made?
 
Maybe I'm just slow, but I cannot for the life of me picture what your talking about Stacy. Can someone please draw a picture of the steps? I'd like to make one of these for a decorative piece, but like I said, I don't understand the steps.


-Adam
 
I re-read your post and figured it out. Thats really insightful how you did the stand. Clever maybe you DID do the first with the integrated stand! Thanks for the time and quick tutoring.
 
TnTom said:
I appreciate the detail. I have made numerous using standard square stock but Id have to see a few pics of the RR spike to see how you deal with the head. do you have any pieces you have made?
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When I go to the shop Thursday I can take a picture of a board with each step I made that includes the bends when you see the picture it will make sense. It isn't of a railroad spike but the slitting is the same except how you deal with the head. Its hard to imagine without having seen it done. When you make one you will be surprised how clever it is. Are you familiar with the non-rr spike versions like I did above its the same as the RR Spike. Whats fun about these is that you can be as creative as you like. I wont be going to town till thursday but will get some good pics for you.
 
bladsmth said:
If it stops raining, I'll try and do one today and take some clear photos.
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Adam
Ive attached a couple of pictures of the stages in making the cross. You'll see how the blank is slit at 90deg and over lap, the greater the overlap the larger will be the center opening. The long slit after folding out will be normally cut shorter and is the upper extension of the cross, but make it easy on yourself and cut it after you unfold it when you first unfold the the short slit I like to use a chisel to spread the short legs first and hammer square the hardy hole makes squaring easy. then do the long slit unfold and hammer flat, you'll see. It almost does itself.
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Thanks for the picture! It makes more sense now. In the second bar of steel in the picture, at the bottom of the bar there looks like there is steel missing. Do you just cut that off? Also, if that were a railroad spike, how would you get that center cut in it? Would you hot cut it? I assume the head of the spike would get in the way and you couldn't make the cut from the bottom. I hope that makes sense.

-Adam
 
The cut on a RR spike is made in a curve on the band saw. Just angle in and curve to the center. Start about 1" up from the head on the back side.

He cut off the excess in his photo to show what would become the top, but was saying that you can normally cut it after unfolding and shaping.
 
Oh OK, it all makes sense now. Thanks Tom and Stacy for explaining it. I'm gonna try one of these next time I fire the forge up!

-Adam
 
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