Modern stainless super steels in the kitchen?

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sweet_hitch-hiker

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Apr 12, 2009
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So I've been wondering how you guys think modern stainless steels would hold up in the kitchen, especially in a professional kitchen setting. I'm talking steels like CTS-XHP, M390, CTS-204P and the like. Another question is what is considered "the best" steel for this application? I know it comes down to edge geometries, blade shapes and heat treats but I want to hear some thoughts.
 
I think M390 and CTS-204P might be overkill for the kitchen. I use both for hunters and skinners. I am trying S35VN for some kitchen knives, HT to 61-62. I can't imagine why a chef would want to "steel" his knife all the time when he could get one which should last a week between sharpenings.

I would like to hear from some chefs, professional or home, with their thoughts.

Tim
 
tim37a said:
I think M390 and CTS-204P might be overkill for the kitchen. I use both for hunters and skinners. I am trying S35VN for some kitchen knives, HT to 61-62. I can't imagine why a chef would want to "steel" his knife all the time when he could get one which should last a week between sharpenings.

I would like to hear from some chefs, professional or home, with their thoughts.

Tim
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Me too. Im in culinary school, and as a knife guy I cant help but think of the "perfect" knife.
 
Yeah i think modern stainless steel helps better than any other as it had a good hold in the kitchen. The professional chefs must know about this as they work with all kind of cutleries very easily.
 
I have been making knives from S35VN, and CPM 154 for years. I know Butch has been using CTS-XHP, and CKTG sells knives from M-390
 
Hey Bear_Blade,

What has been the customer feedback when using S35VN in the kitchen? How long does it go between sharpenings?

Tim
 
AEB-L is looking like it may be an excellent choice for a stainless kitchen knife.

Attributes - Fine grain, great edge stability, ability to take to a high hardness with a thin edge, easy to sharpen, gets crazy sharp and is stainless.

I'm about to try out twelve feet of it on varieos kitchen knives and see. :D
 
Nowadays most steels used is adequate, geometry is very important.

Believe it or not, most chefs dont care much for knives and usually buy cheap.
 
White #2 -fantastic
White #1 -super fantastic (arguably almost as good as Blue #2, but it isn't very common to find and often as or more expensive)
Blue #2 (AKA "blue paper 2") -the best (there may be others as good, but I highly doubt there is anything better)

I believe Blue #2 @ 62-63 HRC outperforms even super steels of higher hardness, and that its balanced properties are golden. I find it to do better holding a fine edge, having both 'bite' but along with a smooth edge (White #1 supposedly does that even better), resistant damage of impact better than other high steels of more brittleness, and as the edge is lost, it wears in a fashion in which chipping isn't an issue. I also find it easy to sharpen compared to most other super steels I have worked with. Most of the high-end Japanese knifemakers speak of Blue #2 as being one of the finest or the finest (White #1 is often braised as well)...most people on kitchen knife forums will speak to it as a mecca of kitchen knives. It's all-around properties makes a good argument as to why that is often said.

I love S35VN but on a folding knife. In the kitchen, Blue #2 massacres it (and virtually everything else). The White #2 knives I own are absolutely incredible (and much less than Blue steel)...at 60-62 HRC, I find it outperforms most steels that are significantly harder, and having personally (unintentionally) exposed the blade to situations that would make most chip, I've seen first hand it is far tougher than most other materials used on other kitchen knives I have owned/do own.

CTS-XHP may be a good candidate. M390 may or may not be as I have read mixed things. Then other super steels like M4, S90V or S110V would probably be poor choices for most owners without serious sharpening competency and equipment.
 
How does Blue #2 massacre S35VN? Where can I get some to try - seems I have read that it is practically impossible to get it.

Tim
 
My yanagi is white steel, my absolute favorite knife.

many knives will slice paper, my yanagi does it silently.

I am looking to get a suji in blue steel, konosuke makes a very good kitchen knife.
 
As for more affordable, used Konosuke (you can generally get them for under half the new price...you can occasionally find used HDs in White #2 for 80-90 bucks. I look at it being a big difference over S35VN because its edge holds significantly longer...in all fairness, the S35 knife I had was hardened to 59 IIRC, which to my understanding is not the hardest it can be taken to. There may be better steels out there I am not aware of, but Blue and White steels are ones I have found to give amazing edge retention, not chip, and possible for someone like myself to sharpen with relatively basic knowledge relative to others. I also really like how they can be given a very thin edge and they do not seem to lose that edge anywhere near the speed of other commonly available kitchen knives.

While something like S90V would probably be an absolutely awesome performer, sharpening is something I think most people would come to dread (at least I do). I imagine the heat treat also affects what I look at as nice steel. I've read M390 reviews and it seems people either 1) love it, or 2) despise it...which makes me think that M390 probably is going to differ a lot based on who produced the knife. I have also read that some of the older carbon steels can often outperform many of the more expensive steels when the heat treat is done in a certain manner...a lot of people swear 1095 blows away the same knife in another steel if the treatment was done right. I've come to really like 52100 as reasonable cost and great performance.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
AEB-L is looking like it may be an excellent choice for a stainless kitchen knife.

Attributes - Fine grain, great edge stability, ability to take to a high hardness with a thin edge, easy to sharpen, gets crazy sharp and is stainless.

I'm about to try out twelve feet of it on varieos kitchen knives and see. :D
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Oh you'll love it:thumbup:.

I'll need to do more testing to see if that "high hardness with a thin edge" works out well.

I know Mark Richmond has a few lasers in AEB-L, but I didn't want to fork over an extra $100 or so for it, so I just bought a cheaper Artifex Nakiri in AEB-L for around $70 IIRC and ground it thinner on my belt sander:D.

Crazy sharp is right, the resulting edge when I got off my leather belt made all the hairs on my leg jump out of the way of the edge as I run it by(so, tree-topping). It's also easy to grind and easy to refinish with a scotchbrite belt.

Haven't used it much since, but this is one of the few knives I'm actually afraid of because of how sharp and thin it is. I know if I ever drop the thing, I'll probably lose the whole foot or have the blade stuck in my bone on my leg:eek:.
 
pnsxyr said:
White #2 -fantastic
White #1 -super fantastic (arguably almost as good as Blue #2, but it isn't very common to find and often as or more expensive)
Blue #2 (AKA "blue paper 2") -the best (there may be others as good, but I highly doubt there is anything better)

I believe Blue #2 @ 62-63 HRC outperforms even super steels of higher hardness, and that its balanced properties are golden. I find it to do better holding a fine edge, having both 'bite' but along with a smooth edge (White #1 supposedly does that even better), resistant damage of impact better than other high steels of more brittleness, and as the edge is lost, it wears in a fashion in which chipping isn't an issue. I also find it easy to sharpen compared to most other super steels I have worked with. Most of the high-end Japanese knifemakers speak of Blue #2 as being one of the finest or the finest (White #1 is often braised as well)...most people on kitchen knife forums will speak to it as a mecca of kitchen knives. It's all-around properties makes a good argument as to why that is often said.

I love S35VN but on a folding knife. In the kitchen, Blue #2 massacres it (and virtually everything else). The White #2 knives I own are absolutely incredible (and much less than Blue steel)...at 60-62 HRC, I find it outperforms most steels that are significantly harder, and having personally (unintentionally) exposed the blade to situations that would make most chip, I've seen first hand it is far tougher than most other materials used on other kitchen knives I have owned/do own.

CTS-XHP may be a good candidate. M390 may or may not be as I have read mixed things. Then other super steels like M4, S90V or S110V would probably be poor choices for most owners without serious sharpening competency and equipment.
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I almost mentioned the blue and white steels as i've heard they're great. it's tough because kitchen knives are very thin so the harder steels chip easily
 
tim37a said:
Hey Bear_Blade,

What has been the customer feedback when using S35VN in the kitchen? How long does it go between sharpenings?

Tim
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I have used CPM-S35VN for some of my Culinary knives since it came out a few years ago.

How long any knife stays sharp is greatly decided by who is cutting? What they are cutting and just as important what kind of board they are cutting on.

I would say that there is a improvement of edge retention with CPM-S35VN of appox, 20-30% over CPM-154. Of course your mileage may very.

I really like the CPM stainless steels for culinary use because of their excellent corrosion resistance, Edge holding and fine grain structure.
 
sweet_hitch-hiker said:
I almost mentioned the blue and white steels as i've heard they're great. it's tough because kitchen knives are very thin so the harder steels chip easily
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My like of White #2 is really from how at a paper thin edge it is surprisingly tough...I've banged my Kono on ceramic and metal quite hard and I expected to harm the blade but it did not. I can't describe this in technical terms, but White steel seems to carry a 'bite' to it even after it is polished/stropped that gives it a little better traction with something such as a tomato where micro serrations (probably not the right term) give an advantage.

I have also really come to like 52100 steel...and based on reading here, it sounds like some makers on this forum are really pushing it to new levels. I also like it because it seems to be one of the best values as far as cost vs. performance.

I don't know if 1095 is used much with kitchen knives, but if it is I would also be curious to see how well it performs with excellent treatments. I've read some members here say they feel 1095 holds it own with some of the best super steels when done right...and I assume a blade in 1095 would be a lot less than say S90V, or D2, etc.

(and based on some other reading I have done here, it seems 52100 and 1095 are not that far apart and performance of both is a serious value of cost-performance)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/858524-52100-vs-1095
 
You see a goodly number of guys using S35VN, S30V, CPM 154 and CTS-XHP. I have noticed some guys switching from the CPM 154 which was maybe the most common PM steel you saw in custom kitchen knives to CTS-XHP. I know Butch uses it and I think that the guy from Cut Brooklyn did too. One supposed advantage of XHP for the maker is that is it much more forgiving in the HT than say M390 or Elmax. As for the Hitachi blue and white paper steels, they are not stainless. AEB-L is quite popular for cast stainless because of the fine grain and edge stability. I have been told that the Lohmann Niolox steel has become very popular in the food service industry in Europe.
 
jdm61 said:
You see a goodly number of guys using S35VN, S30V, CPM 154 and CTS-XHP. I have noticed some guys switching from the CPM 154 which was maybe the most common PM steel you saw in custom kitchen knives to CTS-XHP. I know Butch uses it and I think that the guy from Cut Brooklyn did too. One supposed advantage of XHP for the maker is that is it much more forgiving in the HT than say M390 or Elmax. As for the Hitachi blue and white paper steels, they are not stainless. AEB-L is quite popular for cast stainless because of the fine grain and edge stability. I have been told that the Lohmann Niolox steel has become very popular in the food service industry in Europe.
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Well the new generation PM process that Carpenter uses makes the carbide distribution much more refined, so the edge holding is very similar to AEB-L with better than D2 wear resistance, though I notice it rusts like D2 as well.

I've heard Niolox is also like AEB-L, but with better wear resistance and very good corrosion resistance despite the lower chromium content.
 
there's a little known steel from japan that performs really well that they call Hitachi HAP40. they can get to pretty high rockwells to around 64RC afaik and are sold pretty cheap. metal master on ebay sells them. there is also a finetools that sells hap40 steel knives.

hap40 info:
http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/hap40.shtml

mark richmond has been testing the steel on a specific knife he's testing and gonna introduce which is also in hap40 steel.

for price and performance, this hap40 stuff is really promising from what i've been reading.
 
hi,
find BLUE steel here: http://www.mehr-als-werkzeug.de/product/719618/Japanese-Multi-Layer-Steel-Core-Blue-Paper-Steel.htm

metal master on ebay currently has nothing for sale.
HAP40 would probably make a good knife, but would make a better drill bit or end mill. It is similar to M35 or M42 tool steel. once hardened, usually Rc68, how do you machine it? silly me, i forgot that you just need a sliver of this steel(or the Blue/White) that you then weld into a body of wrought iron or soft stainless.
JMHO
the old sailor
 
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