Most effective sword type for modern unarmored sword fighting

"Would like to know if there are any studies concerning which type of sword and style of fighting would be the most effective in a modern sword fight (one that is unarmored)or just to hear discussion/opinions on the subject."

Nowhere does he ask about gunfights, having already admitted that gunpowder rendered armor obsolete and, by implication, swords obsolescent outside of carefully controlled situations. Hell, if I was going into a gunfight situation, I'd opt for an MP-5K, if I could get one, but, if the situation was limited to swords, as scotjute has done, and laws may well do in some countries, then the question is a valid one. So, I suggest that we get back to discussing what swords we might choose, and why.

I have already said that I like the idea of the Roman gladius. Let me expand upon that a bit. The gladius found in Mouries, France, has a blade about 25.2" long, rather longer than the later versions, and a point that tapers in from about 1/3 of the way back from the tip rather than the chisel point of the Pompeii type. With a 2-3" wide blade, this would make a very lethal weapon for close-in sword work, which is what it was intended for. It is sharpened all the way up both edges and the historical record, especially from the Macedonian Wars, shows it to have been one extremely effective cutting device as well as the stabbing weapon that we normally associate with Roman sword tactics. Both Livy and Polybius report that the Macedonians were horrified by the bodies from the early skirmishes and battles with the Romans, as these had legs, arms, and heads lopped off as if by axes. The Macedonians were terrified by the Roman gladius at first. Finally, a gladius of whatever length would be ever so much easier to conceal under your overcoat than a katana or whatever it was that Connor MacLeod carries. You can hang it from a heavy belt or use a baldric to sling it from your shoulder.

If my opponent had a longsword, I would not have the scutum of the legionary, so I would have to keep out of his reach until I was able to entangle his blade with my coat or cloak. Then I would close and use the gladius. I am just not athletic enough to want to try a rapier, smallsword, or any of the others. Besides, I love the Romans and their history. What can I say?
 
FullerH makes a good case for the double edged short sword. I suspect that a single edged short sword with a five to six inch false edge would work as well. Which leads to my choice. A 1909 Argentine bayonet. It has a +/- 16" blade with a short false edge. The remainder of the blade is single edged and it has a quillion guard that looks quite practical to me.
Here's an example
http://www.liongate-armsandarmour.com/gn193.htm

Mine's not anywhere near this nice :(

Pat

PS I guess I'm assuming that the weapon would be used inside a building. Outside, I'd vote for a katana.

P.
 
I'd prefer something lighter.

I think the katana is too long for modern combat plus two handed techniques are alot harder to manage without serious training.


the filipino knife techniques were originally developed for a short sword, barong or bolo type about 20" or so blades. I think this is the ideal length for modern combat scenario. plus it is not too bad against a longer sword. but that is a training issue. the 8 lines of attack is an awesome concept that is versatile for many types of weapons.


I also think james keatings large knife design for szabo is awesome compromise between cutting and thrusting.


scotjute, is this scenario a duel or what? if it is a duel than it would narrow things down a bit.
 
Chrisaloia, the Albion Armories gladius hispaniensis weighs 1.75 pounds. I don't believe that this is an especially heavy sword. Indeed, I think that it is rather light for what it will do.
 
Here is a pic of the gladius hispanesis, it is a wicked little sword although the one that I had my hands on was heavier at around 1.9 lbs.

Dsc01204.jpg
 
Chrisaloia,

I purposely didn't narrow the scenario down
as I wanted it to be whatever scenario one
could envision a sword fight actually occuring
today. Granted that the possibility is not
highly likely.
I had thought that the Katana or Wakizashi would
be the clear-cut swords of choice, and they
are definitely favorites. But others
have brought up some other rather interesting
choices.
After reading thru all the answers, the following
would perhaps seem to be "universal" to most of
the responses:
1. The best sword for an individual is the weapon
they are familiar with/trained in.
2. The best sword will be light-weight and quick.
3. The best sword will be "capable" of thrusting
and slashing/cutting, though not necessarily
excelling in all areas.
 
Scotjute said,
<b>"I purposely didn't narrow the scenario down
as I wanted it to be whatever scenario one
could envision a sword fight actually occuring
today. Granted that the possibility is not
highly likely."</b>

Well that changes things for me a little bit.
What I can reasonably envision?
I'll answer this way...
IF there were any way to legally carry a swordcane, I would without doubt carry one.

I have been playing with a design for years now, and the bare bones description is a straight grip, large silver knob (pommel) and a very slim double edged, razor sharp 35 inch CPM-3V blade. The "scabbard/cane shaft" would be steel with tapered but not quite pointed tip.(The steel scabbard would function as an improvised gauche as needed.)

This would be a lousy "hewer and cleaver", but I suspect that a few good stromatzione's (sp?) and a few good thrusts would deter the average non-firearm using attacker without ever allowing him to close on me.

I've received some training in the use of saber and a little in the use of a Katana, but the style that suits me best is Rapier and Main Gauche. It's what I'm most skilled with and perfectly suited for use against non-armored foes.

It is not however, a style to be taken up by one without training as the strength of the rapier is in the "finesse" with which it is employed.
 
To clear up some misconceptions: the katana is both a two-handed and a one handed weapon (one-handed techniques are a little bit more advanced but not cumbersome), and it is both a stabbing weapon and a slashing weapon (both one-handed and two-handed). For short sword work, warriors usually carried an 18-20" wakizashi as well.

Studies on which sword is better would be necessarily unscientific since swords require lots of skill and training to be effective, and that will vary from sword to sword even in the same individual. However, IMHO for unarmored combat, a longsword capable of slashing effectively and quickly (i.e., two-handed capability) would have an advantage because there would be no armor to impede the slash. On defense, the same advantages would accrue to blocking. In armored combat . . . depends on the armor, but stabbing becomes more important.
 
Oh now you have done it, you could open up the cut vs thrust debate again! However I think it should be noted that the rapier was the sword of choice when unarmored street fighting was potentially in the offing, much more so then any type of two handed broadsword. I'm guessing that there was a reason for this...

I think that a rapier would probably be more effective then the gladius that has been extolled here as well, for the simple reason that it has longer reach. Before you all jump on me about the "practicality" of carrying a rapier today I want you to think about that statement just a little. :)
 
LOL!
Hey Triton,
If not for the legal issues, it would be much more practical and easier to conceal and carry a rapier than a gladius.

Is that a Gladius in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
:D
 
I have pontificated on this for some time now for personal reasons, as I'm sure we all have. Let me start my stating that my background is in arnis and I've continued that training in a more technique-specific way.

I don't own any swords but I think that the barong and gladius are fantastic short swords and the point about them is well taken. Additionally, as has been stated, the best weapon is the one that suits each person the most.

I've been in contact with a local 'smith about some custom work and hope to have a nice custom short sword done up for me sometime soon. The blade is about 24" long and it has a light basket hilt and an angled "pistol grip" like Laci Szabo's little knife, or an Indo Keris/Kris. For those that don't know what I'm talking about, this is a grip that is angled as on a conventional shotgun or rifle stock, or as some fencing foils have.

The blade is either double edged or single with a false edge on top a third to halfway back. Its profile is like a straightish Indo Kris, with a slightly more abrupt point as on a Western sword.

I have the light basket hilt (which will be where a great deal of the cost of the sword comes from!) because in arnis I have found that most labanlero starts with a successful hand cut that would take most people out of action (not a cut so much as a focused slash with the first few inches of the stick). Anyone who has had this kind of training knows how hard it is to operate when your weapon hand has been smacked with a stick (let alone if it were a blade!). The hilt/guard would be equipped with enough meat to ensnare an opponent's blade and redirect it enough for me to close with a dagger or folding knife.

It'll also be oriented to prefer use in the left hand because I'm a southpaw.

The idea of this whole setup is to facilitate slashes and stabs in combination with each other, good flow, mobility but defense, and general aggressiveness with speed. It should weigh about 1.5 lbs if the basket hilt is done right. This is basically a fairly classic European weapon with some personal refinements and some elements of the Archipelago incorporated.

I'll likely commission a nice gladius like that above from the same fellow!
 
Zan,

Your ideas about the basket hilt are very interesting and I know just enough about FMA to know that they could be very valuable indeed.

The biggest problem I see with the idea is that any sort of effective hand protection is going to cut down on the versatility of your grip.
The other thing to take note of, is that a good hilt isn't all that much protection.

I fight with a "Pappenheimer" style rapier, and while the pierced plate coverings have taken a lot of dings that would have otherwise gotten my hands, I still have a few very nice scars on the back of each hand from where the guard did NOT stop the point from getting through. (Thank God for blunted points!):)

Balancing protection against flexibility is a tough thing to do, I don't think anyone's ever really mastered it, but I wish you luck with your design!

BTW, if you would like some input, post pics here or email me. I'll be glad to offer any thoughts that might arise.
 
Ok, here's my question then.

Which sword is the best choice for BOTH armored and unarmored, and it is somewhat easy to hide in you pants or under your shirt?
If not possible, what would be the best for unarmored attackers, and still able to hide it in these areas?
 
"Which sword is the best choice for BOTH armored and unarmored, and it is somewhat easy to hide in you pants or under your shirt?"

A do-all sword that you can hide easily in your pants or shirt? Short of a Highlander flick I don't think it can be done. Most swords designs are a compromise of one sort or another. There is no "super" sword. The best cutters are not the best thrusters and vice-versa. Armor can make the job of a sword very difficult indeed. Are you talking mail, plate, kevlar with ceramic inserts? The past users generally found that thin broad blades worked well for cutting and that narrow thickened pointy blades worked well for penetration. There are many designs trying to marry the two ends. Pick a style of fight and then your sword. Hiding a sword is not easy. Even a short sword is significantly bigger that a large bowie knife. I don't think most swords were made with concealment as a priority. Just the thought of trying to conceal a 45" bastard sword in your pants is laughable. In the dark with a coat maybe you can pull off concealing a Gladius for a bit. A knife is far easier to hide - even a large knife.
 
I'm pretty much with Loki on this one. I don't think that there is an optimal sword for both armored and unarmored combat. If I had to choose something to go into both with (and I only got one choice) I would pick my personal favorite the type XVIIIa. They are reasonably quick although not as quick as a rapier or small sword and they have some armor penetrating ability although again not as much as say a type XVII or XVI.

As for the concealment thing I'd say forget it. Conceivably you could carry something like a gladius or a barong (points in their favor for this) under a long coat but I believe even that would be cumbersome and pretty easily spotted.
 
Originally posted by Loki
"Which sword is the best choice for BOTH armored and unarmored, and it is somewhat easy to hide in you pants or under your shirt?"

The best cutters are not the best thrusters and vice-versa. Armor can make the job of a sword very difficult indeed. Are you talking mail, plate, kevlar with ceramic inserts?
Click to expand...

Keavlar with ceramic inserts, the one armor that be most likly encounter these days.
 
You aren't going to hide anything larger than a medium sized Bowie Knife under a shirt or inside of your pants. Bill Bagwell hides his Hells Belles under a light jacket, and these are large Bowie knives, but that really has to be the limit, short of a long coat. I should think that a raincoat or a trench coat might do the job well, if cut loosely. A gladius could be worn on a baldric, slinging it rather high, with the pommel of the sword just below your off-side armpit, that is unless you want to try imitating the Legions and carrying it on your strong side. It can be done, but you need to hang it a bit lower to do so. In any case, even the Mouries gladius, one of the longest found, has a blade of 25.2" and a hilt of some7.5" for a total length of 32.7". Other gladii will come in considerably shorter, as, for instance the Albion Mark Gladius Hispaniensis measures 29" overall and their Pompeii Gladius measures 27.5" overall.

Triton, you and others are quite correct about the reach of rapiers and/or various Japanese swords and other western swords over the gladius. I have no problem with that, as I would not get involved with someone unless I had no choice in the matter, and then I would use a chair, a rolled coat, cloak, or whatever as a shield to get close enough for the gladius to be effective. I am too old and arthritic to be doing the kind of moves that are required in the more normal styles of swordfight, so I would try to keep any such endeavour in which I found myself down and dirty, and very close quarters. And I do understand that without a scutum, I would take injuries to get that close, but that would be the cost of killing the other guy.
 
conceled wweapon versus armoured and unarmoured persons

take a war hammer dsiguise it as a t handled cane add a spiked bottom and you have a nasty suprise weapon for anyone.
 
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