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Motor & VFD

Discussion in 'Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers' started by otpowell, Oct 25, 2013.

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  1. PT Doc

    PT Doc

    Dec 24, 2011
    Just an FYI, I bought a 3 hp 3ph baldor on eBay for $275 delivered. That size motor does not have much demand I feel and you can get pretty good pricing. It required a different Kbac drive but all works great and having more hp is not a bad thing.
     
  2. javand

    javand

    Oct 17, 2010
    If you can find them, and they're new then yeah that's a great deal. Assuming it's a 56C of some type. I've got one, it's a great motor, but they're not easy to come by in my experience in that configuration.

    Still, no discernible difference between the Baldor 3hp and the Leeson one that I've seen yet.


    Most of the 3hp Baldor's I've seen on ebay have been larger shafts than 5/8. As long as you don't mind making or getting a drive-wheel made, that's not a prob. Obviously for those of us that are resourceful, there are lots of options.


    The information I posted previously was geared more toward those that want to keep it simple, and may not have the skills at hunting stuff down. I know a lot of people that bought ebay motors only to find out they were in a configuration they couldn't use.



    There are a few Baldor VM3561's (3hp, 3ph, TEFC, 56C, and 1750 RPM which is ideal) on ebay right now that are new at good prices.. Those are a great option, and there appear to be a few mostly from the same seller, which must be dumping a stock-pile. Looks like they're all $325 or make offer. May pick up one as a spare myself.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  3. pbaker

    pbaker

    6
    Jan 18, 2014
    I'm confused i was under the impression that i had to have a 220 v plug in my shop and that i need to get a 2HP 3 phase motor in order to use the VFD,Is this not correct.I know that using 220 would be more efficient.I would rather use 115v motor just because the 115 is all ready there.I have no problem having 220 installed if it would be better to have.If i was to use the 1.5 motor what would be a good motor match for the 27D VFD.
     
  4. orangehero

    orangehero Basic Member Basic Member

    124
    Apr 15, 2010
    You need a 230VAC 3-phase motor to run it with a VFD, but some VFD's take a 115VAC single-phase input. For example the KBAC-27D is one such VFD, you can run it on 115 or 230VAC single-phase. With household 115VAC the most power you can get is 1.5HP. The KBAC-29 can do 3HP/9A but it is 230VAC single-phase input only. There are other configurations of VFD's as well, but those are the most typical for knifemakers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  5. pbaker

    pbaker

    6
    Jan 18, 2014
    Thank you very much!
     
  6. 12345678910

    12345678910

    Jul 13, 2009
    See the vfd info at the end of this next post

    I tried to summarize it and the useful links
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  7. 12345678910

    12345678910

    Jul 13, 2009
    The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V33

    The answer to a 13 young student is different than a retired machinist
    With members worldwide, you may have a local supplier, hammerin or neighbour.
    Join our community by filling your profile with location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment and hobbies so we get a sense of where and who you are.

    Look at the threads at the top of the page.

    The basics in the simplest terms
    Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF
    http://www.2shared.com/document/hk4wQruA/Absolute_Cheapskate_Way_to_Sta.html
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/3622507/Jones-Scott-Jonesy-Absolute-Cheapskate-Way-to-Start-Making-Knives


    Web Tutorials
    Detailed instructions http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694673

    The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?8og1ix21j9dcz4n

    Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?02ra4do6xyzayeq
    http://www4.gvsu.edu/triert/cache/articles/nw1/scales1.htm

    Bob Egnath how to http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

    Books
    A list of books and videos http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9435307&postcount=43

    BladeForums - E-books or Google books http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

    Books I like:
    David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
    Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
    Clear, well organized, available and inexpensive.

    Knife Design:
    Think thin. Forget swords, saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

    Look at hundreds of photos

    Start with a drawing and post it, we love photos.
    French curves, graph paper and an eraser are vital tools.
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bHFtVNs9tWA/TEj5Quiq1ZI/AAAAAAAAAI0/rn2EoHoXpVc/s1600/The+French+Curve.jpg

    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1147466-How?p=13120810#post13120810

    Then a cardboard cutout template & with handles, pins and such.
    Use playdough to shape a comfortable handle, good handles are not flat.

    How to post a photo
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...AL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

    Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603203

    Bob Engnath Patterns in a PDF http://www.mediafire.com/?qgx7yebn77n77qx


    Forging Books:
    Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith - A modern book with colour photos - forging - no knifemaking.

    Jim Hrisoulas
    The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
    The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
    The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

    Machine Shop Basics -Books:
    Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF Http://www.archive.org/download/elementarymachin00palmrich/elementarymachin00palmrich.pdf

    The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF http://ia700309.us.archive.org/6/items/completepractic00rosegoog/completepractic00rosegoog.pdf
    Right Click and save

    The $50 knife Shop-not recommended
    This book has a great title, but is NOT gospel. It confused me for a long time.
    Forging is NOT necessary; file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

    Forget the Goop Quench BS
    Back when they used whale oil, it was still liquid oil.
    Use a commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
    Grocery store canola oil works for some steels like 1084.

    Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat it properly.
    Forget Lawnmower blades and railroad spikes, start with a new known steel.
    Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
    Proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo is inexpensive and quench in Canola.

    Cable damascus is an advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

    The grinders are the best thing about this book, but 2x72” belt grinders plans are now free on the web.


    Videos

    Don't be this guy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

    Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
    Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.archive.org/download/gov.ntis.ava08799vnb1/ava08799vnb1_512kb.mp4

    Safety-video
    Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days. http://www.howtomakeaknife.net/FreeStuff/SafetyVideo.wmv

    Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others.

    The best beginner videos I have seen:
    “Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

    "Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

    “Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
    -(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, tooling and machine stitching)

    Green Pete's Free Video
    Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
    Use a piece of known steel, not a file. This as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
    "Green Pete" posted it free.
    Be sure to look at the other titles I mentioned too - spend some time searching.

    Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB
    http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/499...femaking_Basics_-_Make_a_Mora_Bushcraft_Knife

    How to download that video
    http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

    Videos for rent,read the reviews, Some are good, some bad, expect to wait months
    http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

    Draw Filing Demonstration
    YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dec78RQsokw

    Nick Wheeler- Hand sanding 101 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I4x4QLpfnk

    Steel
    The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes is useless for knives.
    Forget about lawnmower blades ,files, railroad spikes and other unknown junkyard steels.
    For the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

    If you send out for heat treating, you can use
    Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
    Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

    For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find Eutectoid steel and quench in Canola oil.
    1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheap & made for DIY heat-treat.
    http://njsteelbaron.com/
    Phone # 862-203-8160

    Suppliers List
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

    Heat Treating
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

    You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results.

    Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
    Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
    http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
    http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

    Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
    http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
    http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

    FAQ's
    http://www.hypefreeblades.com/faq.html

    1095 is good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
    1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K
    Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/673173-Working-the-three-steel-types

    If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 CPM-s35vn Elmax, and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
    It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 due to minimum charges.


    Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
    Forget the Goop Quench and Motor oil.

    Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;
    The best explanation and classification oil speeds I've seen
    http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?28197-Hardening-II-Quenching

    Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel like 1084

    Brine and water are cheap, and technically correct for "water hardening" steels W1 and 1095 but a fast oil like Parks 50 or Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades
    If you use water or brine, expect a "tink" and a cracked blade

    Don't quench in a plastic pail of oil

    Glue – Epoxy
    Use new slow setting 30 min to 1 hour, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and seal out moisture.
    Slow epoxy is stronger and gives you time to work with it.
    Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive or blasting is best.
    Ensure the surface is clean and no oil including fingerprints.
    Use Acetone & Alcohol, or Blasting.
    Don't over clamp it A “glue starved joint” is weak when all the adhesive is squeezed out.

    Brownell's Acraglas
    West Systems G Flex
    JB Weld-leaves a grey line


    Grinder / Tools

    Hand Tools
    You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
    Just use 1084 instead of a file.
    spheroid annealed steel is butter soft to file.

    Stacy - 10 Tools
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1049666-Ten-Tools?p=11983527#post11983527

    Examples of filing jigs
    http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg
    Http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8152684286_312b9fc8da_b.jpg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9iNDRwwBQQ#t=330

    Grinders
    A professional three or four wheel 2x72 is worth it
    In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
    You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

    Entry Level Grinders
    Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

    Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0


    Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
    http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders


    DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

    KMG Clone Free Plans
    http://www.metalwebnews.com/manuals/knife-grinder.pdf

    NWG No Weld Grinder-buy plans
    http://usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages.html

    EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
    http://www.wilmontgrinders.com/Pages/EERFGrinder.aspx
    http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

    Buy the kit
    http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

    What Belts to buy?
    http://usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy.html


    VFD Variable Speed made simple

    Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
    Maska steel pulleys are good plus shaft, bearings, belt

    It all adds up to about 1/2 the price of a KBAC-27D

    I like direct drive with no belts using a VFD and 3 phase motor for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with finer control.

    NEMA 1 VFD’s are designed to keep your fingers out and the metallic dust intrusion will smoke it.


    Motor
    3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
    RPM is up to you some use1700 RPM at double speed.
    Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader, Bee, Wilton and GIB styles.
    I get them on ebay, even with paying $100 for shipping to Canada I save $ on used motors

    The 1.5 HP combination is the most common
    It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
    A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.


    VFD
    KBAC-27D
    http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_AC_Drives_Inverters/AC_Drives_NEMA_4X.html
    http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbda_manual.pdf
    Use the Distributor Locator to find a local source, online sources may be cheaper.

    There are cheaper units, but the only VFD I have found that runs a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC-27D

    It is NEMA 4, sealed from metal dust

    Good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings.
    If you buy a bargain vfd, you're stuck with a chinglish manual and ridiculous programming.

    I like that I can buy it in person from a local distributor in Canada.

    Travis W reports running a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

    Hookup is simple
    http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html


    Safety Equipment
    Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

    Respirators
    Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.

    If you can't breathe, nothing else matters.

    Wearing a mask and glasses on the top of your head doesn't count.

    The minimum I would consider are silicone half masks with a P100 Filter
    3M 7500
    http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...Ox_Uev7qe17zHvTSevTSeSSSSSS--&fn=CH7500FP.pdf

    and North 7700
    http://www.amazon.com/North-Safety-770030L-Silicone-Respirator/dp/B002C08YCW
    http://www.amazon.com/North-7580P100-P100-Particulate-Cartridge/dp/B000UH6PSE/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_img_b.

    Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for acetone and glue fumes.
    Prefilters can snap over the main filter for longer life.
    There are 3 sizes get fitted in person

    Shave, also test the every time.

    For beards
    3M PAPR
    Resp-O-Rator
    3m Breathe Easy
    Trend Airshield Pro
    Air Cap II


    Search

    This Google page searches BF well.
    http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

    Get rich making knives ?
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...knife-making-worth-it?p=11980504#post11980504

    A shop visit
    http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1166688-How-to-get-a-shop-invite

    V33 March Jan 27, 2014

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  8. razor-edge-knives

    razor-edge-knives Moderator Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Apr 3, 2011
    So I'm resurrecting this old thread because I didn't see a point in starting a new one lol.

    If I am reading correctly through this thread, If I am going to be using the KBAC 27D then I will need a 3 phase motor correct? I am looking at going w/ 1.5hp so I can run it on 110v and I don't think I'll need more than that anyway. So I will need a 1.5hp 3 phase motor, preferrably w/ a 5/8" keyed drive shaft, correct?
     
  9. Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith

    Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ilmarinen - MODERATOR Moderator Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Aug 20, 2004
    Yes.

    Please don't resurrect old threads Post a new one if the dozens of previous threads about motors and VFDs don't answer your question.


    Thread closed.
     
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