My first chefs knife

C

Carhold Arms

Joined
Oct 15, 2013
Messages
72
I've been working hard at the craft. I'm no real smith yet; but I aim to be. It seems like every time I make a knife it is a completely different style than the one previous. Though I am well aware of the tried and true advice that it's less hassle to buy known knifestock from a dealer I can't help but be fascinated with the idea of repurposing. So, with that in mind I set to making a chefs knife for my, for lack of a better word, mother-in-law who owns a restaurant in Fortuna. After finishing it I ran it through an entire Sunday paper page by page...it just kept slicing. I'm proud of this one. I took more time to make it prettier than the Alaskan Dude knife or any other I've made for that matter. There's still a few hiccups on this blade but I know if I'm patient my skill will continue to grow. Please let me know what you think:

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Blade: Old rototiller tine...may be 1070

Spacers: couple of spoons I found in the yard

"Bolster": Birds eye maple

Handle: Maple and ???
 
I was going for a zero grind at first but I stopped with the edge still a bit thick (1/16" or less) and ground it convex. I would have tried to finish the zero grind but I busted my last belt on the sander and had to finish it by hand. I'm not the "measure twice, cut once" type. I'm the "let's see what happens" type. That way, eff-ups are just, as Bob Ross would say, "happy accidents."
 
I guess I can't really comment on the geometry without using it or at least looking at it in hand. Convex grinds are really hard to describe accurately — with a flat grind, on the other hand, it's easy to list the thickness at the spine, the thickness behind the edge, and the sharpening angle and you pretty much know how the knife is going to cut. So I can tell you that your fit and finish look pretty good in the pictures but you'll have to do some testing to see how the geometry is (you should always test). Cutting paper will tell you what I call "terminal geometry" (how sharp the edge is) but it doesn't tell you about the other aspects because paper is so thin. Try carving a roast with it and see how thin you can get the slices. Try to make slices of uncooked beef in a single stroke (without sawing). Try raw fish. The best way to test any knife is to use it for the tasks for which it was designed and compare it to other knives. If you're happy with the design, the finish, and the performance, then you've succeeded.
As you know, using known steel will improve the performance of the knife, especially if you use a known steel that is better-suited to your purpose. Slicing knives (and most other types of kitchen knives) benefit from a hyper-eutectoid steel like 1095, W1, W2, 52100, etc. But knifemaking is ultimately about doing what you want to do, so if using recycled steel is what you want to do, then don't let anyone stop you. That said, good files are often 1095 or W1, extra improved plow steel is 1095, roller bearings are frequently 52100.
Good luck on your next project!

- Chris
 
Nice polish on the knife blade, looks like you put a lot of work into it. Overall the blade pattern looks versatile enough to be on an outdoors knife like a camp knife. Is the edge convex? I'm sure it will cut well in the kitchen, but I'm not sure its what most folks expect when they think of a chef knife.

Nothing wrong with trying different steels and heat treatments as a beginning knifemaker, your personal experience will teach as much or more as reading information from other sources. Kitchen knives in general tend to be a much more demanding knife to make in your own shop and kitchen knife users tend to be much more specific in exactly what they want or don't want in a knife. The requirements of a good performing kitchen knife are vastly different from what one expects from other kinds of knives.

Regarding this particular knife above, I would want to know if the tang/bolster junction is sealed to prevent water from entering and causing rust. Looks like this one has barely enough knuckle clearance to avoid banging a cutting board, a bit wider blade would help.

As far as design goes, traditional designs have evolved with centuries of trial and error, the classic models represent a consensus on performance. You can't go wrong by following a classic design and learning why it works or doesn't. Kind of like food recipes, some chefs like to create new and innovative dishes but the classics have become favorites through decades of evolution and trial and error.
 
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Perhaps calling a "chefs knife" was a bit of a misnomer. It put me in mind of kitchen work seeing as how most of the knives I've done so far fall in the utility or camp category.

Chris: Testing beyond paper cutting will commence once the giftee receives it. She has a commercial kitchen piled with various animal fleshes and produce to try it out on. I do thank you for your comments and advice. I have some good old files lying around. I used one to make a razor and have had success with them, but the others are of varying makes and quality. With the tine I used for this kitchen knife, I had been given about a dozen of them all stamped with the same markings, so aside from differences in batch quality I can assume they will all heat treat roughly the same.

olpappy: Thank you as well for your comment. I took more time on the finish of this knife than any other that came before it, not only because it is hand rubbed, but also because I had it "finished" once and then my elderly and insistent dog decided to nudge me for food while I was sharpening it...a bevy of scratches marred its satin finish so i started over and ended with what you see in the pics. The knuckle clearance is a bit tight for my hands, but the handle does kick back towards the pommel end a bit. With the giftees dainty lady hands I'm sure she'll find it comfortable. In the picture there's still some buffer fluff on the tang/bolster junction but it is definitely water tight. I filed the hole in the bolster to match pretty darn close...couldn't see light through it and only came off during friction fit with many light taps of the hammer. I used 3M fiberglass boat resin to adhere all the handle pieces.

Thanks again for constructive criticisms. It's why I finally decided post on these forums after years of trolling. Anyone can say "good job" or "you suck", but real comments from peers in the craft are truly helpful. All projects will be posted as they develop.

-Big Nick
Carhold Arms
 
Fiberglass boat resin is NOT an adhesive, nor is it waterproof. Remember all the bubbles in the bottom of fiberglass boats in the 70's and 80's? You need to use epoxy resin - in my opinion the best is West System G-flex.
 
Carhold Arms said:
I had it "finished" once and then my elderly and insistent dog decided to nudge me for food while I was sharpening it...a bevy of scratches marred its satin finish so i started over and ended with what you see in the pics.
Click to expand...

This made me laugh
 
Who am I to be critical of your workmanship? The knife you've made is obviously better than any knife I've ever made, because I've never attempted to make one. My comments are strictly limited to a comparison between what I understand a "chefs" knife to be, and the example you have produced. As olpappy mentioned, classic designs developed over time to perform specific functions in an efficient manner.

First, food safety is always the top priority when it comes to any kitchen knife. Any surface that can trap food particles, bacteria, protein molecules, etc., is dangerous. In your design, the handle may look nice, but the joints where different materials come together are just such danger points. These, and the location where the tang inserts into the handle need to be carefully sealed and waterproofed to prevent cross contamination in the kitchen. You can't "eyeball" any such tight juncture.

Next, a proper chefs knife needs to be quite heavy. This allows gravity to do a considerable amount of the work while slicing, dicing, and cutting through various food stuffs. That's the major reason that the blades are customarily very broad; that's where the extra steel is that makes the knife heavy. The rest of the weight comes from the thick spine of the blade. This makes the blade rigid and strong, allowing the spine to be used to pound and crush various things, such as ginger root, which is very difficult to chop or mince finely.

That broad blade serves another important function. When I hold a chef's knife, I "pinch" the sides of the blade between my thumb and forefinger, and wrap my remaining 3 fingers around the handle behind the bolster. This gives me a good grip on the knife, and increases the amount of lateral stability I have over the blade. If I try and hold the knife solely by the handle, the blade feels like it wants to tip sideways as I cut with it. Also, since the knife is used for dicing and chopping stuff up, the cutting edge of the blade needs to extend a considerable distance below the underside of the knife handle to permit the fingers to grip the knife without smacking into the cutting board, and for me, to permit my fingers to grip the sides of the blade without coming in near proximity to the cutting edge or food stuffs that have been cut and are sitting on the cutting board while I continue to slice or dice or whatever.

Apart from the health issues listed above, my strongest criticism of your design would be the manner in which you've executed the tang of the blade. I wouldn't be able to hold the blade with my customary grip of thumb and forefinger. Also, the blade's bolster on a chef's knife serves as a safety feature. It prevents the hand from sliding forward and contacting the cutting edge of the blade in the event you lose your grip on the knife.

Since a chef's knife can be expected to do a lot of pounding, the tang of a good quality chef's knife is the same width as the handle, and the scales of the handle are sandwiched on either side of the tang. With your design, the tang is quite narrow; over time I would expect that the handle material will become compressed and loose around the tang, resulting in a blade that wiggles vertically within the handle.

One final note: a chef's knife is used mostly by leaving a portion of the blade near the tip in contact with the cutting board and lifting the rear portion of the knife, feeding the foodstuffs to be cut forward, then pressing the handle downward to cut through those foodstuffs. An efficient blade is fairly straight along most of the cutting edge, and curved a bit near the tip to promote this cutting style.
 
Robert,
I agree with you that this isn't what most people call a "chef's knife." However, I would argue with you on a couple of points.
1) "a proper chefs knife needs to be quite heavy." This is only one philosophy on knife design, but certainly not the only one. Japanese kitchen knives are very light, and rely instead on sharpness and thinness to do the cutting.
2) The width of chef's knives isn't to make them heavy, it's to allow knuckle clearance when cutting against a board.
3) Your concern about the tang construction is potentially misplaced. The style of construction used here is a traditional Japanese style called a "wa handle." As long as the tang is thick enough at this point, it will not be weak. Murray Carter is considered to be one of the best makers of kitchen knives, and here is one of his knives with this style of handle: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/fbbuploads/1197246568-MC.jpg
This type of handle does feel different than a full tang construction, but it's a perfectly fine way to go.

- Chris
 
Congratulations on making a fine knife. Good looking. The fit and finish look first class.

With all the discussion about chef's knives I thought I would post a link to a video review about chef's knives from Cooks Illustrated, a professional cooking magazine. These are people who probably use a knife more in a day than most of us use in a year.

Anyhow, I thought it was rather interesting and surprised at how they like the Victorinox chef knife.

http://www.cooksillustrated.com/videos/2545-chefs-knives

Two comments stood out for me. First, the comment about the fine edge angles. Second, the comment about the price. It seems that you don't have to spend hundreds of dollars to get a good, durable, solid kitchen knife.
 
Point taken. Guess I'm hung up on the term "Chef's knife."

Hesparus said:
Robert,
I agree with you that this isn't what most people call a "chef's knife." However, I would argue with you on a couple of points.
1) "a proper chefs knife needs to be quite heavy." This is only one philosophy on knife design, but certainly not the only one. Japanese kitchen knives are very light, and rely instead on sharpness and thinness to do the cutting.
2) The width of chef's knives isn't to make them heavy, it's to allow knuckle clearance when cutting against a board.
3) Your concern about the tang construction is potentially misplaced. The style of construction used here is a traditional Japanese style called a "wa handle." As long as the tang is thick enough at this point, it will not be weak. Murray Carter is considered to be one of the best makers of kitchen knives, and here is one of his knives with this style of handle: http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/fbbuploads/1197246568-MC.jpg
This type of handle does feel different than a full tang construction, but it's a perfectly fine way to go.

- Chris
Click to expand...
 
For good or ill I appreciate all comments and the discussions they spark. I admit fully that I used the term "chefs knife" loosely, and the recipient may find altogether different applications for the knife aside from kitchen use. That being said, I am familiar with the pinch grip used by chefs and didn't find it at all uncomfortable when used on this blade. As to my use of fiberglass resin, it was solely a resource call. I didn't have anything but a few ounces of it for an adhesive. Why it wouldn't be considered waterproof I'm not exactly clear on...it's meant for making boats and I'm fairly certain the majority of them float. Boats from the 70's and 80's I can't offer the benefit of my experience to because I either wasn't born yet, or was a toddler more concerned with cartoons than the finer points of hull manufacture. I have made many homebrew micarta handles and sheaths with this resin and haven't had an issue with them being waterproof as yet. For a hidden tang I did leave it fairly wide and roughed it up quite a bit to help with adhesion, only time will tell if the result is a loose or faulty handle. I would love to be able to spend some money on some west systems epoxy, but that would require having some; which I don't. I oil finished the handle with a mixture of beeswax and mineral oil, both foodsafe.

I feel this knife to be a success because it fulfilled three very important criteria for me:

1) It cuts.
2) I learned something
3) It will generate goodwill with my potential mother-in-law

Aside from those few points, everything else is gravy...or a lesson.
 
Maybe the out-laws will you invite you over for roast beef, and try out the knife.
 
One can only hope. I regret that I will most likely miss first blood, but it will be nice to see the beginning of a patina on my next visit.
 
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