My Latest Inprocess - Updated.

Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
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Well here are some pictures of my latest knife that i am working on. I got her hardened, tempered, ground and etched. I also got my VFD hooked up to my Burr King 760 and I can not imagine how I was able to grind without it. :D

<img border="0" src="http://www.chartermi.net/~laredo7mm/latest12.jpg" width="600" height="450">

<img border="0" src="http://www.chartermi.net/~laredo7mm/latest13.jpg" width="600" height="450">


To see all the steps leading up to this, check out this link:

In Process

Anyway, I will post more when I get the gaurd, pommel, and handle in process.
 
Very nice knife, I really like the pattern, and you make it look so easy. Are you are using a power hammer to flatten the billet? What are you using for the etchant?
 
Terry-

Yes, i use a power hammer. It is a 25 pound little giant. I bought it last March from a guy whose dad was a blacksmith. It had been sitting in their barn for 30 some years. It took me a while to get her cleaned up and rebuilt, but it was well worth it.

I use ferric chloride for an etchant. You can buy it at radio shack. I use mine diluted with water. Three parts water to one part ferric chloride. This blade was in the etchant for about 15 minutes. After the ferric has done its work, I let it soak in vinager for about 5 minutes to neutralize the ferric. Then just clean up the blade with wd40 and some rubbing compund.
 
That blade is realy looking good. I cant wait until you get the furniture on that thing.

Matt Matlock
 
Very Sweet! :) Incredibly uniform! ...and very pleasing to the eyes!

Keep posting this stuff and the tutorial notes.

Thank you!

Rob
 
Just off top of my head, ferric chloride is an acid too, same as vinegar, so not quite sure how vinegar would neutralize it.
 
Originally posted by etp777
Just off top of my head, ferric chloride is an acid too, same as vinegar, so not quite sure how vinegar would neutralize it.

That was also my understanding...
 
ferric chloride is best neutrilized with TSP or baking soda.

TSP Tri Sodium Phosphate you can get it at the point store

if you don't get the ferric off it will rust forever
 
I am not a chemist, so you all might be right. :) I am just going off of what Dr. Jim Hrisoulas says in his book called: The Pattern-Welded Blade Artistry in Iron. From Page 97 here is a quote:

The best all-around low-acidic etchant is ferric chloride....To neutralize an alkaline solution, rinse the blade in clean water and then soak in vinegar for five minutes.

Her is another qoute that I found on a website about printed circuit boards. Their web site is: website

The quote is:
This is a common etchant for hobbyists because it can etch without being heated... Ferric Chloride is a base, not an acid, so don't think you can use baking soda which is also a base to neutralize it should you spill it. Use lots of water to wash it off if you get it on yourself

Anyway, I have not had any problems with the etch continuing after I soak it in vinegar. I probably will try a baking soda solution though. Just for grins. How much baking soda and water do you all mix together?
 
If it's a base, there's no reason why you couldn't neutralize it with vinegar. Interesting...
 
Interesting discussion. I'll butt in if I may.

Simple protic acid/base neutralization concepts won't work for this system of ferric chloride in water, in the presence of air (oxygen).

The system is actually very complicated. But think of oxidation (as in burning), which is what etching and rusting is.

As I understand it, an approximate summary is that, ferric chloride (also known as iron(III) chloride) can covert to iron oxides and iron hydroxides (rust) in the presence of oxygen and water. This releases hydrochloric acid, which attacks the iron in the blade, making hydrogen, and ferric chloride (and iron(II) chloride also known as ferrous chloride) again.
Repeat the conversion of the two types of iron chloride to hydrochloric acid using oxygen from air dissolved in the solution and continue. .

The actual concentration of acid may never be large enough in the bulk solution to be measurable, or considered acidic. But it never gets used up, as the cycle continues to replenish it. But oxygen and the blade continue to be consumed to make iron oxides and iron hydroxides. As iron hydroxides build up, the bulk solution will become somewhat basic. But corrosion will still continue until it gets very basic.

Masochists may get some idea of what's involved by looking at the summary section of this article on corrosion which describes the role of iron chlorides:

http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/anth605/File9.htm

What is needed is to remove all traces of ferric chloride and ferrous chloride because they let the chloride ions be used over and over again to attack the blade as hydrochloric acid. So the chloride ions are what make this system so effective at eating iron.

Excess ammonia solution (a base, but also a good ligand for iron ions) probably converts nearly all of the iron chlorides to less corosive ammonia complexes of some sort. And any free hydrochloric acid will be neutralized as ammonium chloride, a salt.

Excess vinegar (solution of acetic acid, but the acetate ion half is a good ligand for iron ions) probably converts nearly all the iron chlorides to less corrosive acetate complexes.

Simple mechanical rinsing effects at work too, of course.

Either vinegar or ammonia, likely effectively no more ferric chlorides. But any chloride salts of whatever type left have potential to start rust and generate some iron chlorides, so rinse well with water. Undoubtably things are more complicated than I describe.

My suggestion:

Use more than one treatment with fresh vinegar or ammonia (some tiny proportion of the iron chlorides won't convert--but a tiny proportion of a tiny proportion gets pretty close to zero). And final rinses with water.

Scrub surface if any thing could be trapped under any crud on the surface.

I don't think that baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) solution will convert iron chlorides to alternate, benign iron compounds as vinegar or ammonia will. Sodium bicarbonate makes a buffer solution, which means if enough is disolved, it self-regulates its pH until too much is used up reacting with acids. It holds pH 8.4, which is according to the alkaline inhibitive solutions section of the linked article not basic enough to inhibit corossion if chloride ions are present. Since it's a buffer, a solution cant be made any more basic than 8.4, no matter how much is dissolved. Household ammonia is a stronger base.

Lastly, I would not use vinegar and table salt, which one may come across in some discussions of "de-oxidants" for copper etching. That actually makes some hydrochloric acid. Which is why the mixture is so great for cleaning copper. Remember that those etching fragile copper PC boards want a totally clean, oxide free surface for later fabrication and they may do some things especially for that reason. Any very thin oxides that form on a blade by stopping an etch will be removed by polishing or soldering preparation.
 
I must admit I was wrong, and that firkin is right on, though I don't claim to be in practice on chem enough to check everything he said. :) But I talked to my old roommate about htis yesterday and he said basically same thing(Biochem major about to start masters program in organic chem). So you were doing just fine after all Laredo. Just ignore the voices behind the curtain.
 
Firkin,

Thanks - fascinating stuff. I'm saving this.

What about when people use vinegar as etchant?

JD
 
I have used vinegar, followed up with baking soda & water to neutralize. It's a much more subtle etch. I've also tried Naval Jelly as an etchant.

So, from Firkin's chemistry essay, it would look like FeCl for etch, then vinegar, followed up with an aqueous TSP or baking soda solution, then finally a water rinse.

How does that sound?
 
Why is everybody so technical? I rinse in water, scrubbing with my fingers, dry and oil. I've never seen a hint of rust. If I get really gung ho I'll wash it with soap. I think this is getting really deep.
 
Hey, sounded like maybe you guys wanted to know something about what was going on....:)

etp777: Chemists refer to Lewis acids, which ferric chloride could behave as. Which you may have seen sometime. But I kinda figgered the discussion was good old proton/hydroxide stuff. Heck, just forget I brought that up.

Anyway, one should be able to rinse it all off with lots of water. Hopefully, any stuff that's not soluble can be scrubbed off. Hows that for simple?

"Neutralization" would mean to me stopping things faster by applying something that converts the etchants. (since protic acid/base means little here) Hopefully you guys never have a case where seconds of etching make such a big difference after all that work!

I suspect vinegar or ammonia also help to loosen particles on the surface so micro-environments below become exposed to the neutralization and/or rinse. (Remember also, that the properties of the bulk solution tell little about the environment in a tiny corrosion pit on the blade where the action is.)

Whatever works to remove as much etchant and any other chloride salts as possible. And without the presence of oxygen or water, any chlorides left can't do anything. A coat of oil fills that bill, as does sealing a tang in a handle.

I think you want to leave a very thin, dark layer of iron oxide attached to the larger or more numerous micro-pits of the more etchable metal to get the contrast. Vinegar may help darken these since it seems to me to tend to "stain" more than "rust". Acetic acid (vinegar is about 5%) is less much acidic than hydrochloric acid. Don't know if acetate recycles like chloride, or if builds up iron acetates and things eventually stop. Add some sodium chloride, though and I'd think the ferric chloride cycle would start. So many types of iron oxide, and oxidation processes, like heating, bluing, browning, etc.

Make it as complicated/simple as you like, as long as it works.

But underneath this seemingly simple operation lies a complexity probably just as rich as that underlying steel tranformations brought about by forging and hardening, which I'm starting to read a little about.

You guys are engaged in quite a multifaceted activity.

Back to occasional lurking :)
 
Hi this is DaQo'tah

Im going to try to etch my very first blade.

Im going to use that stuff everyone says is available at Radio Shack.

but after the blade sits in a bath of that "stuff" for 10-15 minutes, what next?
T.S.P.?

Yes or No, should I wash it in a 2nd bath of TSP before I give it a good scrubbing in soapy water?
 
after the diluted ferric chloride i rinse with water and let the blade soak in vinegar for 5 minutes. Then rinse again with water. Then clean off the black gunk with WD40 and mild rubbing compound. Then oil it again after it is clean. Just my $.02
 
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