natural patina vs. man-made

how about olive oil? is this okay? I know you can eat it, but is it okay to use on knives?
 
That is a concern, but if it's just on the blades you'll probably wash it off before it's a problem.

It has been suggested to not use OO on wooden cutting boards or knife handles for this very reason (rancidity). Mineral oil is preferred.

-- Sam
 
Anybody know if RUST-FREE is obtainable outside the US?

The reason I ask is that one bottle costs about 7.95 and can't be THAT massive but costs a whopping 25-30+ dollars to ship if I include a small tube of polishing paste. This is too dear!
 
Dr. Mudd said:
IMNSHO any kind of "patina" offers little to NO protection against rust and corrosion ...
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So I'm just imagining that my carbon steel knives with a rich patina have very very little problem with corrosion, while my newer, unpatinaed knives rust rather easily? Interesting.
 
Yes, and manufacturers have been bluing guns for over a hundred years simply because they like the look, not because it does any good. :rolleyes:

He did say, "NSHO"...

-- Sam
 
As I don’t have as much actual experience as some of the others I do believe a patina does provide some protection. It doesn’t turn steel into a total stainless steel but it does help. I’m not convinced it makes any difference if your patina was put on all at once or over some amount of time to be effective.
 
It does make a difference. I have been eating apples for a couple of days and have a nice even gray patina on both blades of my Old Timer. I used it for the last two days at work (on gillnet boats) and with the man made patina, rust still formed on both of the blades wherever my seawater wet hands touched them. I have yet to experience rust with the natural patina.

pete
 
Pete1977 said:
It does make a difference. I have been eating apples for a couple of days and have a nice even gray patina on both blades of my Old Timer. I used it for the last two days at work (on gillnet boats) and with the man made patina, rust still formed on both of the blades wherever my seawater wet hands touched them. I have yet to experience rust with the natural patina.
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You say definitively that it makes a difference whether or not a patina was put on intentionally and quickly, or over some time through use. Then you "back this up" by saying A) you tried applying a quickie patina once on one knife using one method. Not saying you're wrong, but this is hardly a scientific study that would support your initial declaration.
 
I have used Dexter-Russell Hi Carbon boning knives (models 1375, 1376, 1377, and 1378) at work on both party/charter fishing boats and commercial fishing boats for over 13 years. They begin to attain a patina after the first day of use. A fresh water rinse after use in the beginning keeps them from rusting until a dark patina has eventually formed. after a couple months, the freshwater rinse is often neglected, (I've NEVER oiled the blade of a carbon steel knife by the way) yet minimal amounts of rust form. if you never rinse the knife with freshwater in the beginning, a patina forms, but so does brown rust, and eventually there is nothing you can do to prevent it BUT oil the blade. we cut fish that are a. taken home by the people who caught them, or b. sold at market. Oiling the blade with synthetic oils is not an option. I have heard of guys keeping 12 oz water bottles with the tops cut off full of olive oil or other type of cooking oil to put the knives in, but this only works if the bottle is secured from tipping and only with the shorter bladed 5 and 6 inch "rippers". I never tried the man made patina in those days because I did not know about it.

However in my experience thus far (perhaps I should have clarified this earlier) I have experienced little to no rust on carbon steel blades that have been allowed to form a patina naturally, and more rust on knife blades that have had a patina applied rapidly and not under natural circumstances.

As for the "scientific" basis of my idea, I am a scientist, but my field is fisheries, not metallurgy. ;)

Unlike most "scientists" however, I take more stock in experience than in "theories" and "hypothesis." :)

Again, what I have posted here is from my own experience. YMMV ;)

as Jack Palance used to say: "Believe it...or not."

Pete
 
It seems highly believable that patina acquired over time is a surer defence against rust than a forced patina.

Two posters here obviously can and do draw on a volume of experience and I tend to respect experience over hype.

My own (limited) experience with a Weidmannsheil has taken on an interesting new dimension over the week-end: I've tried the vinegar, lemon juice,mustard techniques and they have had only limited success. The potato method failed spectacularly to produce anything other than grime! I was at my country house and was making some pasta sauce, the kitchen knives were woefully blunt and I couldn't be bothered to take them out to the grindstone, so I used the Weidmannsheil lockback which I EDC. I was thinly cutting shallots(I prefer these to onion in the sauce) and they produced a wonderful mottled blue tint all over the blade and fast! Metals must be quite individual-even from knife to knife using the apparently same steel-but these shallots worked where most else had failed. Worth a try I suggest.
 
First, I want to apologize to db for an earlier message I posted here in this thread. My previous messages weren't getting through to him at that time and instead of patiently trying explain myself further to him, I got frustrated and was a bit rude and terminated the discussion quite abruptly. I sincerely regret that now.

Second, let me try to explain this a little further as I should have done from the get-go. Pete1977 and willgoy are exactly right in there conclusions about forced patina vs. natural patina regarding their own experiences and I will tell you why, long story made short:

Number one, when correctly attaining a natural patina, your knife must be maintained properly each day. This means at the end of each day (a) Rinsing your pocketknife off (b) Wiping your blade off with a dry rag after rinsing (c) Lightly oiling the blades after wiping dry.

Number two, all steel is porous, which I will explain in a moment or two in more detail.. Carbon steel as well as stainless have porous surfaces. Stainless steel will also corrode and oxidize(rust), just less often than carbon steel, hence the name "stainless" which is meant to imply literally that it stains less often than carbon steel.. Getting back to "all steels are porous" which means that no matter how well polished the surfaces of the knife blades are, and most aren't anyway, they will still have inconsistencies, splits, tiny fishers, low spots and high spots in the blades. These are areas where moisture will settle and hence is where the signs of patina will appear first when using your knife for cutting produce or getting caught out in inclement weather, working on the ocean in a boat exampled by Pete1977 and so on, ect.

After the lowest spots, splits and such are filled with the first signs of patina and a few days go by, it is then the overall blade steel will start to take on beautiful(IMO anyway) swirls and circles of blues, purples and light silvers.. Now bear in mind that each day that goes by, the blade steel is sealing itself in very, very thin layers of patina, eventually achieving a multitude of extremely fine layers, colored in a smooth satin charcoal appearance.

This system of gradual and uniform patina coverage cannot be duplicated or compared to the man made method of forcing one thick layer of so-called patina on the blades overnight. I trust I have made myself clear on this process and would welcome any more questions in this regard.

Best,
Anthony
 
willgoy said:
Anybody know if RUST-FREE is obtainable outside the US?

The reason I ask is that one bottle costs about 7.95 and can't be THAT massive but costs a whopping 25-30+ dollars to ship if I include a small tube of polishing paste. This is too dear!
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Perhaps, I could assist you in this regard if you have any interest. I have a small bottle of rust free over half full which I would be willing to give to you if you would pay for the shipping. Also, I thought the international airmail shipping over seas was 13.-14. USD.. In any event if your interested let me know via email: veritas_group@bellsouth.net
 
Sunnyd really no need for your apology, as I can be a real pain in the asx, but I do thank you for it. More importantly thanks for the more in-depth explanation on patina fast vs. slowly applied.
 
I very much appreciate that db. But, I was clearly in the wrong for popping off like I did and just wanted to let you know that you are among a select group of fine fellows whom I respect in this community. Thanks again.. And you are welcome regarding the natural patina-further explanation process..:)
 
Thanks Sunnyd! That's a very nice gesture I will be in touch on Monday:thumbup:
 
In my experience carbon steel blades are kind of like cast iron cookware. It takes a while and care to get a good patina, going and constant use to get it to be in its best condition. I use carbon steel knives in my kitchen, and carry one in my pocket everyday. I have tried to force a patina on my blades a few times , with mustard, mayo, potato's, and a few others, but never got a patina that seemed to stick or protect as deeply as a naturally obtained patina. The knives that i use for cutting fruit (as much as 70 lbs of apples a weekend during hard cider / wine season) or butchering during the fall seem to get the patina that protects the best, and last the longest. just my .02, Joe
 
Joe, good analogy with the cast iron cookware. it takes long term use to get them where they need to be. I discovered that with the 96OT. 3 or 4 apples a day for the last few weeks has pretty much gotten the clip blade a nice dark gray and the spey blade is catching up right quick.
 
The old timers are wonderful knives, and the 96ot is a great trapper. I carry a 194OT often when gardening, fishing, and doing other out door activities. Took a lot of fruit and fish to turn that blade but it was worth it in the end. Enjoy your trapper, apples, and the sea thats a good combo. And i hope that patina that your forming adds the protection and character your looking for. Joe
 
Joe ~ Camo Kid,

Where do you live exactly?. It sounds like the a place where I used to live with all the wonderful things you have mentioned.:thumbup:
 
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