Need Recommendations on Freehand Sharpening Stones

MadJukes

MadJukes

Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
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I've done some research and watched videos and I would really like to get a set of nice stones to hone my freehand sharpening skills. I'm pretty much a beginner at sharpening. I'd like to steer any recommendations away from systems such as the Lansky system, as I want to be proficient at sharpening by hand. I'm mainly going to be working with Elmax and CTS-204P steels, and occasionally softer steels as well. Does anyone have any opinions on their own stones or advice on what to get? Ideally I want to get the best bang for the buck that won't need upgrades for a very long time.

Thoughts on water stones vs diamond stones?
 
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Beginner sharpening go to harbour freight and buy the 4 side diamond box sharpener. Then buy a few of their cheap ass folders, and a sleeve of their razor blades.

When you can sharpen that cheap folder sharper than that cheap razor, try it out on your good knives.
 
A Norton combination grit fine/ coarse India would cover you for the rest of your life. Giving you some great edges, while offering good economy and longevity and doesn't hurt the pocket book. DM
 
King waterstones and Suehiro water stones are great. I've had no reason to upgrade. My grit range is 1000king ,3000Suehiro,6000king
For about $60
(I have diamonds and strops to fill the higher and lower grits)
Some come as combo stones for under $20!
 
Waterstones: Grind quickly with the steels they are designed for. Some waterstones don't cut wear resistant steel very well. My Nubatama stones, which are otherwise a VERY high performance set of stones, cut D2 fairly slowly. Waterstones are highly variable. There are dozens and dozens of different types. Studying waterstones can become it's own hobby or discipline. Jason B knows a LOT about them and frequently makes recommendations based on people's needs: The steels they want to sharpen, their budget, and the types of knives they will use them with. The grinding feel of waterstones is very different than harder stone types. But that's waterstone dependent also because some waterstones are VERY hard, while most are somewhere between medium and soft-ish. I've had trouble getting consistent results with mine. I'm sure it's a matter of practice and technique. But I've been sharpening for quite a while. Waterstones are different.

Diamond plates will cut almost any steel type, including the most wear resistant. They won't ever need flattening. If you use light pressure they'll last essentially "forever". If you use harder pressure, you'll break off the diamonds and dramatically reduce the life of the plate. I've had very good luck with my DMT Diahsharp 8x3 plates. The feel of sharpening on them works for me because I can get good consistent results with them. There is no where NEAR the variation in diamond stone finishes that there are with waterstones. There are something like 7 different grades (or grits) of DMT stone and that's it. They produce a certain "look" to the finish due to how the diamonds cut (deeply) into the steel. The grit rating isn't exactly comparable to other stone types. For instance, the DMT EF, is supposed to be a 9 micron stone, which should be roughly 900 grit (ANSI). Should be a step up from a Spyderco medium. The finish it leaves is nothing like either of those. It's more coarse looking because of how the diamonds cut. The EF leaves a great finish for a lot of applications. It's just not comparable, by the numbers, to other stones.

Waterstones can help you achieve a certain "look" to the steel. This is important if you sharpen traditional Japanese blades with wide blade roads.

The diamonds and the waterstones are completely and totally different animals. I've tried to outline some of the differences to try to help you figure out which might be best for you. Please ask more questions if you have them. Good luck!

Brian.
 
bgentry said:
Waterstones: Grind quickly with the steels they are designed for. Some waterstones don't cut wear resistant steel very well. My Nubatama stones, which are otherwise a VERY high performance set of stones, cut D2 fairly slowly. Waterstones are highly variable. There are dozens and dozens of different types. Studying waterstones can become it's own hobby or discipline. Jason B knows a LOT about them and frequently makes recommendations based on people's needs: The steels they want to sharpen, their budget, and the types of knives they will use them with. The grinding feel of waterstones is very different than harder stone types. But that's waterstone dependent also because some waterstones are VERY hard, while most are somewhere between medium and soft-ish. I've had trouble getting consistent results with mine. I'm sure it's a matter of practice and technique. But I've been sharpening for quite a while. Waterstones are different.

Diamond plates will cut almost any steel type, including the most wear resistant. They won't ever need flattening. If you use light pressure they'll last essentially "forever". If you use harder pressure, you'll break off the diamonds and dramatically reduce the life of the plate. I've had very good luck with my DMT Diahsharp 8x3 plates. The feel of sharpening on them works for me because I can get good consistent results with them. There is no where NEAR the variation in diamond stone finishes that there are with waterstones. There are something like 7 different grades (or grits) of DMT stone and that's it. They produce a certain "look" to the finish due to how the diamonds cut (deeply) into the steel. The grit rating isn't exactly comparable to other stone types. For instance, the DMT EF, is supposed to be a 9 micron stone, which should be roughly 900 grit (ANSI). Should be a step up from a Spyderco medium. The finish it leaves is nothing like either of those. It's more coarse looking because of how the diamonds cut. The EF leaves a great finish for a lot of applications. It's just not comparable, by the numbers, to other stones.

Waterstones can help you achieve a certain "look" to the steel. This is important if you sharpen traditional Japanese blades with wide blade roads.

The diamonds and the waterstones are completely and totally different animals. I've tried to outline some of the differences to try to help you figure out which might be best for you. Please ask more questions if you have them. Good luck!

Brian.
Click to expand...
Great post, Brian. Useful info for anyone getting equipped for sharpening.
 
Thanks for your opinions all. DM, Deadboxhero- have you noticed waterstones being able to effectively cut into Elmax and CTS-204P steel? That's one of my concerns.

BGentry, great post, thanks. From the videos I've watched, I love the finish of waterstones and the process seems like a great hobby to pick up. However, if it can't get the job done (or done easily) as you're mentioning (i.e. inconsistent results on hard steels), maybe I should stay away and get diamond plates?

Calling Jason B please! :) What would you recommend, if waterstones for those 2 steels, within a reasonable budget that will last me a very long time?
 
For the highly wear resistant 204P you will need some sort of diamond plate. My current favorite is the 400/1000 plate sold by CKTG, the grits are more representative of waterstones so the 400 cuts quickly and the 1000 yields a very sharp and toothy edge. I use this plate for my 10V and S90V Spydercos followed by 1 micron diamond paste on balsa to aid in burr removal.

Truthfully, that combo of diamond plate and balsa strop will handle most any sharpening need short of specialty knives and tools.

For waterstones,

Most will handle Elmax, XHP, or even some S30V with higher grade waterstones but as a guide you should pay attention to the Vanadium and to a lesser extent Wolfram (tungsten) percentages within the given steel. Once the Vanadium, which is a very hard carbide former, reaches 4% or more you begin to experience the abrasive not cutting through the steel properly. Because the vanadium is harder than the Aluminum Oxide it polishes the vanadium carbide while removing the softer steel matrix from around the carbide. Once the carbide becomes "loose" in the steel matrix it gets "scooped" out by the abrasive grinding. The reality of all this is the edge gets sharp but has a noticeable lack of potential in its sharpness and cutting ability.

After all that things can still be challenging depending on the quality of heat treatment. Most steels are not heat treated to full potential and this can make thing work that don't normally work. For example: S30V is a widely used steel but it's heat treatment is anything but consistent. From one maker you could sharpen their S30V on cheap Alox stone like King waterstones and not notice much but a little more time needed. While other makers you would grind that stone into a pile of slurry before the factory grind marks came out, and yes I've seen that big of a difference.

I really love waterstones and have tried nearly every common brand on the market in pursuit of the ones with the best attributes. After my long journey (which is far from over) I have settled on the Shapton brand as my main set of sharpening stones. The Shapton Glass line is very hard and fast cutting, even for my S90V and 10V blades they do very well without and noticeable grinding issues. I still think diamonds are a better choice for Super Premium steels but is you want actual stones then the Shapton glass would be my recommendation. This is the most expensive route because you will also need a diamond plate for lapping and I would only recommend the Atoma 400, but this is also a stone set you will never upgrade from because they already stand at the top.

So, with all that in mind what's your budget?
 
Jason B. said:
For the highly wear resistant 204P you will need some sort of diamond plate. My current favorite is the 400/1000 plate sold by CKTG, the grits are more representative of waterstones so the 400 cuts quickly and the 1000 yields a very sharp and toothy edge. I use this plate for my 10V and S90V Spydercos followed by 1 micron diamond paste on balsa to aid in burr removal.

Truthfully, that combo of diamond plate and balsa strop will handle most any sharpening need short of specialty knives and tools.

For waterstones,

Most will handle Elmax, XHP, or even some S30V with higher grade waterstones but as a guide you should pay attention to the Vanadium and to a lesser extent Wolfram (tungsten) percentages within the given steel. Once the Vanadium, which is a very hard carbide former, reaches 4% or more you begin to experience the abrasive not cutting through the steel properly. Because the vanadium is harder than the Aluminum Oxide it polishes the vanadium carbide while removing the softer steel matrix from around the carbide. Once the carbide becomes "loose" in the steel matrix it gets "scooped" out by the abrasive grinding. The reality of all this is the edge gets sharp but has a noticeable lack of potential in its sharpness and cutting ability.

After all that things can still be challenging depending on the quality of heat treatment. Most steels are not heat treated to full potential and this can make thing work that don't normally work. For example: S30V is a widely used steel but it's heat treatment is anything but consistent. From one maker you could sharpen their S30V on cheap Alox stone like King waterstones and not notice much but a little more time needed. While other makers you would grind that stone into a pile of slurry before the factory grind marks came out, and yes I've seen that big of a difference.

I really love waterstones and have tried nearly every common brand on the market in pursuit of the ones with the best attributes. After my long journey (which is far from over) I have settled on the Shapton brand as my main set of sharpening stones. The Shapton Glass line is very hard and fast cutting, even for my S90V and 10V blades they do very well without and noticeable grinding issues. I still think diamonds are a better choice for Super Premium steels but is you want actual stones then the Shapton glass would be my recommendation. This is the most expensive route because you will also need a diamond plate for lapping and I would only recommend the Atoma 400, but this is also a stone set you will never upgrade from because they already stand at the top.

So, with all that in mind what's your budget?
Click to expand...

Hard line, under $400. That being said, I wouldn't want to buy the first thing that's closest to $400, if a $100 or $200 set of stones would do a fantastic job. I'm open to shopping around/buying used (unless that's a bad idea) to get higher quality to potentially save money.

Also just looked up the CKTG 400/1000 grit. Wow, only $35. That's cheap! You'd use just this and a strop? That's it?
 
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bgentry said:
Waterstones: Grind quickly with the steels they are designed for. Some waterstones don't cut wear resistant steel very well. My Nubatama stones, which are otherwise a VERY high performance set of stones, cut D2 fairly slowly. Waterstones are highly variable. There are dozens and dozens of different types. Studying waterstones can become it's own hobby or discipline. Jason B knows a LOT about them and frequently makes recommendations based on people's needs: The steels they want to sharpen, their budget, and the types of knives they will use them with. The grinding feel of waterstones is very different than harder stone types. But that's waterstone dependent also because some waterstones are VERY hard, while most are somewhere between medium and soft-ish. I've had trouble getting consistent results with mine. I'm sure it's a matter of practice and technique. But I've been sharpening for quite a while. Waterstones are different.

Diamond plates will cut almost any steel type, including the most wear resistant. They won't ever need flattening. If you use light pressure they'll last essentially "forever". If you use harder pressure, you'll break off the diamonds and dramatically reduce the life of the plate. I've had very good luck with my DMT Diahsharp 8x3 plates. The feel of sharpening on them works for me because I can get good consistent results with them. There is no where NEAR the variation in diamond stone finishes that there are with waterstones. There are something like 7 different grades (or grits) of DMT stone and that's it. They produce a certain "look" to the finish due to how the diamonds cut (deeply) into the steel. The grit rating isn't exactly comparable to other stone types. For instance, the DMT EF, is supposed to be a 9 micron stone, which should be roughly 900 grit (ANSI). Should be a step up from a Spyderco medium. The finish it leaves is nothing like either of those. It's more coarse looking because of how the diamonds cut. The EF leaves a great finish for a lot of applications. It's just not comparable, by the numbers, to other stones.

Waterstones can help you achieve a certain "look" to the steel. This is important if you sharpen traditional Japanese blades with wide blade roads.

The diamonds and the waterstones are completely and totally different animals. I've tried to outline some of the differences to try to help you figure out which might be best for you. Please ask more questions if you have them. Good luck!

Brian.
Click to expand...

Jason B. said:
For the highly wear resistant 204P you will need some sort of diamond plate. My current favorite is the 400/1000 plate sold by CKTG, the grits are more representative of waterstones so the 400 cuts quickly and the 1000 yields a very sharp and toothy edge. I use this plate for my 10V and S90V Spydercos followed by 1 micron diamond paste on balsa to aid in burr removal.

Truthfully, that combo of diamond plate and balsa strop will handle most any sharpening need short of specialty knives and tools.

For waterstones,

Most will handle Elmax, XHP, or even some S30V with higher grade waterstones but as a guide you should pay attention to the Vanadium and to a lesser extent Wolfram (tungsten) percentages within the given steel. Once the Vanadium, which is a very hard carbide former, reaches 4% or more you begin to experience the abrasive not cutting through the steel properly. Because the vanadium is harder than the Aluminum Oxide it polishes the vanadium carbide while removing the softer steel matrix from around the carbide. Once the carbide becomes "loose" in the steel matrix it gets "scooped" out by the abrasive grinding. The reality of all this is the edge gets sharp but has a noticeable lack of potential in its sharpness and cutting ability.

After all that things can still be challenging depending on the quality of heat treatment. Most steels are not heat treated to full potential and this can make thing work that don't normally work. For example: S30V is a widely used steel but it's heat treatment is anything but consistent. From one maker you could sharpen their S30V on cheap Alox stone like King waterstones and not notice much but a little more time needed. While other makers you would grind that stone into a pile of slurry before the factory grind marks came out, and yes I've seen that big of a difference.

I really love waterstones and have tried nearly every common brand on the market in pursuit of the ones with the best attributes. After my long journey (which is far from over) I have settled on the Shapton brand as my main set of sharpening stones. The Shapton Glass line is very hard and fast cutting, even for my S90V and 10V blades they do very well without and noticeable grinding issues. I still think diamonds are a better choice for Super Premium steels but is you want actual stones then the Shapton glass would be my recommendation. This is the most expensive route because you will also need a diamond plate for lapping and I would only recommend the Atoma 400, but this is also a stone set you will never upgrade from because they already stand at the top.

So, with all that in mind what's your budget?
Click to expand...

Impressive posts. Great info
 
MadJukes said:
Hard line, under $400. That being said, I wouldn't want to buy the first thing that's closest to $400, if a $100 or $200 set of stones would do a fantastic job. I'm open to shopping around/buying used (unless that's a bad idea) to get higher quality to potentially save money.

Also just looked up the CKTG 400/1000 grit. Wow, only $35. That's cheap! You'd use just this and a strop? That's it?
Click to expand...

Yep, very simple and very good combo for cheap. Regardless of the other stones you might buy I would still recommend this diamond plate.

The Shapton Glass 500 and 2000 plus the Atoma plate is about $225 so even that stays well within your budget. You might get curious about other stones eventually, but you will not find better.
 
Jason B. said:
Yep, very simple and very good combo for cheap. Regardless of the other stones you might buy I would still recommend this diamond plate.

The Shapton Glass 500 and 2000 plus the Atoma plate is about $225 so even that stays well within your budget. You might get curious about other stones eventually, but you will not find better.
Click to expand...

Sounds good! I'll get that. How would you progress through the stones, since the 400/500 grits are so similar? CKTG, Shapton, CKTG, Shapton? Any/all advice appreciated! Meanwhile, I'll watch more videos while waiting for them to arrive :D
 
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For the diamond plates,

The 400/1000 plate should be used by itself to set bevels or sharpen premium steels. The Atoma is to flatten the SG stones, the 400 Atoma is nothing like the combo plate and is the only 400 diamond plate that I know of that will easily flatten waterstones. I've tried using my combo plate to flatten but it works like crap. You could also use the Atoma for grinding bevels and it will be much faster but you will also induce excessive wear to what should be a dedicated lapping plate.

The waterstones,

The 500 and 2000 SG stones can stand by themselves with ease. The 500 is smooth but very fast cutting and by itself will produce a very respectable edge. It can easily set bevels on new knives and fix minor chipping and rounded tips. It gives enough power to fix minor thing while not being super coarse and making it easy to damage an edge. The 2000 will yield a nice balance between polished and toothy, it's a grit level I find to cover many bases on many tools while providing good edge retention and controlled cutting. The SG polish more than other stones so you will get a nice polish to the edge too, even the 500 is rather bright for its grit rating.

For steels that don't demand diamonds I would start with the SG500 in most cases. For harder steels I like using a diamond plate for obvious reason but I also like the diamond plate for traditional slip joint pocket knives. It seems to be a better way of starting the bevel on these small knives before moving to actual stones. I will also switch to diamond plate when lots of metal needs to be removed, I do this to save on excessively wearing my SG500.
 
I see,

The 140 will do fine and be a great choice when its time to really remove steel. The only reason I did not recommend it is because I have used the 140 on my SG and it cut deeply into the stone and probably takes off too much material. The 400 is more like the Shapton Glass Lapping Plate (which I have) and provides a better surface texture. It's a very small issue unless your obsessed like me. You could rub the 500 on the 2000 to smooth out the 2k if it really bothered you. It makes no difference on the actual sharpening though besides a little rougher feel on the stone.
 
also check out sigma power stones. Especially the select 2 line. They're made out of pure sic sintered together. They'll cut anything and do so very quickly. For speed you need to go to power abrasives to better it
 
Gotcha.... The shapton lapping glass is nice. The only thing that steered me from the glass was price vs the pro line.... would you rather have 1000/2000 glass or 320/1000/8000 or something in pro? Amazon has a place that stocks the pros from japan for a substantial discount. Thoughts?
 
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