New CRKT Knives Made in China

China lacks a commitment to its products.

At the end of WWII, Douglas MacArthur brought in W. Edwards Deming, now known to the world for Total Quality Management, to restart the Japanese economy. The Japanese weren't able to rise to the top of the ladder through some ancient, mystic Asian principles—it was good old American values that have always worked.

TQM had problems in the U.S. simply because management failed to pay anything but lip service to it. Outwardly, they were implementing it and sharing power, but inwardly they were plotting to downsize, letting senior members of their workforce go just before they were eligible for retirement. They very carefully threw everything and everyone out of the plane, reserving their golden parachutes only for themselves. In the military, where I was, it wasn't quite as bad; however, even I knew that too many flag officers had spent too many years getting into positions of absolute power to share it.

But getting back to China, the Chinese have no commitment to the product. People work because they need to eat and often it's a sweatshop type of environment. There's little pride in production, as the communist system doesn't reward excellence. That's our problem now. China and the U.S. need to get back to that pride and not just depend on technology. Deming wrote the book and MacArthur provided the empowerment in jump-starting Japan into a world economy. So we can't depend on technology alone. One reason people like Buck knives is because Paul Bos has a reputation for decent heat treating. It's something people can depend on. All too often we have to rely on reputation. After all, if you get a knife with so-so heat treat, how will you know. One day you might drop it and it'll break, or you may just occasionally wonder why it won't hold the kind of edge you expect it to.
 
Confederate said:
China lacks a commitment to its products.
Click to expand...
Not to take anything away from you're diatribe Confederate, but this is a pretty general statement. We're completely committed to what we do, in all of our facilities around the world.
 
does the fact that knives are made in China alone cause for dismissal, especially when the price is significantly less than similar knives in the company's line?

It is for me. I don't support commie countries.
 
Knives are one of a few things that afford me the choice of buying a quality, U.S. made product. There are many excellent knives made in the US to choose from and that is where I look for blades. I will never buy a Chinese made knife. That's my personal choice and I respect the choice that people make when they buy Chinese made knives. I don't get it but I respect their right to do so.
As long as there are choices it's all good. However trends show that as more people turn to cheap Chinese products to save money, companies shift more and more manufacturing to China in an effort to be competitive and eventually we loose the choice between US made and Chinese made products. Hopefully a few companies will hold out and give us a choice for a while longer. Then it will be customs or Chicom stuff.
 
Confederate, I wonder how you know so much about China? Your facts about China certainly does not jive with what I've read and the experience of my friends and relatives who do business there. For example, your last three "facts"
1. The Chinese have no commitment to the product.
2. People work because they need to eat and often it's a sweatshop type of environment.
3. There's little pride in production, as the communist system doesn't reward excellence.

First, the Chinese have a great commitment to their products, that's how come they have consistently improved the quality of their goods and gained more and more clients. These are "western" clients full of TQM, Customer centered business, ISO9001, and whatever quality religion that applies. China delivers on time, within budget, and to whatever quality spec (high or low) the customer demands.

Your second point is true of the US and just about anywhere...well maybe not Switzerland. :) There are a spectrum of factories in the US, just like China. We all work to eat and the new US sweatshop must certainly be the cubicle.

Your third point is just not correct. The Chinese take a lot of pride in their production, their society, their children, their achievements. If you took anything away from the Olympics it should have been this.

The Chinese system is not communist, its a mix. The chinese people are reaping great rewards for their excellence in business, many chinese of all social strata are making money, good money, money never before seen in the history of their families.
 
Communist China remains a totalitarian regime whose conduct and policies, internally and externally, are not to be lauded. In fact, some of their conduct is absolutely reprehensible. That said, the key to improved relations with China in the future is trade. The more we trade with each other, the less likely we are to view each other as enemies.
 
It would be cool if we could keep these China threads on a pure knife level, but that may be too much to ask.

With that said, I think there would be a lot of knife companies that would be out of business if it wasn't from them doing blades in China.
 
brownshoe said:
Confederate, I wonder how you know so much about China? Your facts about China certainly does not jive with what I've read and the experience of my friends and relatives who do business there.
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At least he (Confederate) appears to know how to use proper English.;):p

3G
 
neeman said:
Sir,
With respect, that is spurious to the argument.
Deal with what is said, not the grammar or usage.
Click to expand...

You're right, and that's the whole problem. Brownshoe's post was very coherent and in my opinion, very accurate. If I can't tease him about his grammar or usage, what exactly am I supposed to tease him about?;)

Regards,
3G
 
So, does anyone here have any experience with the actual knives this thread was posted about?

I, for one, am pretty curious. Has anyone handled, tested, used any of the knives?

I just kept reading and scrolling, thinking "there's got to be something to do with the original post in here..." but it just didn't show up after the first few posts.
 
Thomas W said:
Not to take anything away from you're diatribe Confederate, but this is a pretty general statement. We're completely committed to what we do, in all of our facilities around the world.
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I don't doubt your commitment. I doubt the commitment of your average Chinese laborer. The Chinese communist system does not promote excellence. There is no loyalty between employer and employee, in the vast majority of cases because if the worker gets sick, in most cases the worker is let go and replaced with one who isn't sick.

Under Deming, excellence was a partnership between employee and employer. Each became loyal to the other and both adopted "team" perspectives.
 
MY opinion only: Taiwan and China are two completely different places when it comes to R&D and QC but it's not just that. It's Taiwanese work ethics that may have been learned or forced on them by the years of Japanese occupation. I have lived and worked in Asia for the last 20 years. My home is in Texas but I stay in Taiwan a few months each year.

I have a Taiwanese made (USA Kit Carson design) CRKT M16-14SF that is one of my EDC, the other being a US made Boye cobalt folder. They both have different purposes but they are both great knives and keepers. I've also owned a Chinese made CRKT and it did not perform as well as the Taiwanese made. It did not operate as smoothly and had different serrations on blade that did not cut well. I gave it to first person that said, "hey, that's a great looking knife."
Another example of QC is that BMW Motorcycle division has KYMCO Taiwan make engines for their new scooter line. I've owned Kymco scooters for over 18 years and know the quality.
With all that said, if I wanted to buy a foreign made knife, I would research and get opinions which is what most of us do. Wala! the Forum.
 
taichungman said:
MY opinion only: Taiwan and China are two completely different places when it comes to R&D and QC but it's not just that. It's Taiwanese work ethics that may have been learned or forced on them by the years of Japanese occupation. I have lived and worked in Asia for the last 20 years. My home is in Texas but I stay in Taiwan a few months each year.

I have a Taiwanese made (USA Kit Carson design) CRKT M16-14SF that is one of my EDC, the other being a US made Boye cobalt folder. They both have different purposes but they are both great knives and keepers. I've also owned a Chinese made CRKT and it did not perform as well as the Taiwanese made. It did not operate as smoothly and had different serrations on blade that did not cut well. I gave it to first person that said, "hey, that's a great looking knife."
Another example of QC is that BMW Motorcycle division has KYMCO Taiwan make engines for their new scooter line. I've owned Kymco scooters for over 18 years and know the quality.
With all that said, if I wanted to buy a foreign made knife, I would research and get opinions which is what most of us do. Wala! the Forum.
Click to expand...

Hi I think that what comes out of China from Foreign companies manufacturing there, the issue of quality is totally dependent on what kind of QC is in operation and how serious this is. Everything costs money, including QCing products, no matter what the goods are, knives, food processors etc etc. If the QC is good then the product should be good too, all things being equal because if the foreign company takes their products seriously then they must place rigorous procedures in place to ensure this. It's one thing getting stuff made cheap, it's another thing to maintain the quality. Companies reputations can rest on this. As you say, getting the advice/input from real users prior to purchase is one good test. Just like buying a car, I reckon LOL.

I'd agree with what you say re Taiwan, I think China is changing and we can see many Chinese companies ( not foreign companies but Chinese) making quality products and competing on the global market against US made products in certain areas such as photographic gear. I'm a staunch supporter of US made photo gear but of recent times having tested out some of these Chinese made products, I can not fault them after rigorous field testing in a professional arena. I think that knife manufacturing needs to go down a similar pathway and it is then that people may have more confidence in cheaper products. JMHO. Cheap is just no good if the QC is non existent.


FCCBCT
 
Confederate said:
China lacks a commitment to its products.

At the end of WWII, Douglas MacArthur brought in W. Edwards Deming, now known to the world for Total Quality Management, to restart the Japanese economy. The Japanese weren't able to rise to the top of the ladder through some ancient, mystic Asian principles—it was good old American values that have always worked.

TQM had problems in the U.S. simply because management failed to pay anything but lip service to it. Outwardly, they were implementing it and sharing power, but inwardly they were plotting to downsize, letting senior members of their workforce go just before they were eligible for retirement. They very carefully threw everything and everyone out of the plane, reserving their golden parachutes only for themselves. In the military, where I was, it wasn't quite as bad; however, even I knew that too many flag officers had spent too many years getting into positions of absolute power to share it.

But getting back to China, the Chinese have no commitment to the product. People work because they need to eat and often it's a sweatshop type of environment. There's little pride in production, as the communist system doesn't reward excellence. That's our problem now. China and the U.S. need to get back to that pride and not just depend on technology. Deming wrote the book and MacArthur provided the empowerment in jump-starting Japan into a world economy. So we can't depend on technology alone. One reason people like Buck knives is because Paul Bos has a reputation for decent heat treating. It's something people can depend on. All too often we have to rely on reputation. After all, if you get a knife with so-so heat treat, how will you know. One day you might drop it and it'll break, or you may just occasionally wonder why it won't hold the kind of edge you expect it to.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with you here on the most but I think China is changing (slowly), it depends on how rigorous the QC is and this is ultimately the responsibility of the instigating company/ies for controlling which is no different to management keeping a watchful eye on the products they are producing. Plus pride in the creation of product is paramount. All things cost money, there are no real shortcuts IMHO.
 
If CRKT knives are made in china, e.g. the Bladehq Pilar S35VN, how do we know for sure that the steel is real, i mean as great as Spyderco S35VN?

I got knives with D2 steel from China and knives with 440C from China and i can confirm that the Chinese D2 and Chinese 440C is :poop: steel. :thumbsdown:
I've entered <s35vn> search term on GB and AX and found many knives at the 20$ mark sporting a China made S35VN steel blade ...
 
kreisler said:
If CRKT knives are made in china, e.g. the Bladehq Pilar S35VN, how do we know for sure that the steel is real, i mean as great as Spyderco S35VN?

I got knives with D2 steel from China and knives with 440C from China and i can confirm that the Chinese D2 and Chinese 440C is :poop: steel. :thumbsdown:
I've entered <s35vn> search term on GB and AX and found many knives at the 20$ mark sporting a China made S35VN steel blade ...
Click to expand...
Most likely it's s35vn with a low hrc and poor heat treatment showing lower performance than other well known brands.

Keep an eye on the spreadsheet and subscribe to outpost 76 and SuperSteel Steve as they do the cardboard cut tests to show the performance (cause the hrc does not tell you how it will perform irl).
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCI_ZXbN06A7W937hKKnUfqQ

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC76o8bpHyEpBaysM9Pr83Og

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OepNr_D4lqbdTFqdqWl1rmAd4bOzPzJe6J0iEWrdJGU/htmlview

Whats sad is the quality on these is horrible still, they are still overpriced even with crappy heat treated s35vn and they go for alot of money in the aftermarket cause a bunch of fools think they can rip people off by selling them off for 130+$ when they are worth $30
 
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If CRKT would upgrade its blade steels and handle material (from aluminum to titanium), I think they would eat the hell out of Spyderco's and Benchmade's lunches. Your thoughts?
Bought three CRKT products, all below discounted / outlet prices, as I observed a lot of returns and left over inventory for sale. First a small CRKT hihi 2900 for 16 bucks, loved it enjoyed it gifted it, and shortly thereafter it got lost. Next, gifted a Carson M21 for 28 bucks, and it ticked off all the right boxes for an 11-year-old boy. Interesting to note it is, even today, a favorite, even though quite a bit of material is missing from the blade as it has had many sharpening sessions for one in training. I would never consider buying a replacement as it was bought as a trainer, now filled by other Taiwan manufacturing.
As part of my EDC, I bought a Hissatsu for 47 dollars more then it was worth, as I was completly disappointed after allowing for appropriate break-in: fails = action, geometry, material and lock; then the clip failed completely, rotating around the ONE screw's axis. CRKT did not offer any satisfactory service or replacement options, so it sits in the kitchen drawer because the AUS 8 has some utility. Without this experience and atrocious customer service, I would've been interested in the Shizuka noh Ken, but today the Benchmade Fact 417 could fill that role. In fact, some tools used by freemen can be considered heirloom quality because they last longer then our dusty sojourn. Cost always factors differently for training, immediate need and budget, and heirloom products. In the end, it seems like the suits at CRKT are driven differently (pause and consider the 750.00 CRKT, as corporate expression in the light of their current catalog), than say Medford or Reeves or Buell or Jobs or Wozniak or Rutan or Musk or Ford or Honda or ..., you get the idea, or not.

copied from
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/crkt-could-eat-spydercos-and-benchmades-lunches.1660721/page-4
 
scottc3 said:
↑
If CRKT would upgrade its blade steels and handle material (from aluminum to titanium), I think they would eat the hell out of Spyderco's and Benchmade's lunches. Your thoughts?
Bought three CRKT products, all below discounted / outlet prices, as I observed a lot of returns and left over inventory for sale. First a small CRKT hihi 2900 for 16 bucks, loved it enjoyed it gifted it, and shortly thereafter it got lost. Next, gifted a Carson M21 for 28 bucks, and it ticked off all the right boxes for an 11-year-old boy. Interesting to note it is, even today, a favorite, even though quite a bit of material is missing from the blade as it has had many sharpening sessions for one in training. I would never consider buying a replacement as it was bought as a trainer, now filled by other Taiwan manufacturing.
As part of my EDC, I bought a Hissatsu for 47 dollars more then it was worth, as I was completly disappointed after allowing for appropriate break-in: fails = action, geometry, material and lock; then the clip failed completely, rotating around the ONE screw's axis. CRKT did not offer any satisfactory service or replacement options, so it sits in the kitchen drawer because the AUS 8 has some utility. Without this experience and atrocious customer service, I would've been interested in the Shizuka noh Ken, but today the Benchmade Fact 417 could fill that role. In fact, some tools used by freemen can be considered heirloom quality because they last longer then our dusty sojourn. Cost always factors differently for training, immediate need and budget, and heirloom products. In the end, it seems like the suits at CRKT are driven differently (pause and consider the 750.00 CRKT, as corporate expression in the light of their current catalog), than say Medford or Reeves or Buell or Jobs or Wozniak or Rutan or Musk or Ford or Honda or ..., you get the idea, or not.

copied from
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/crkt-could-eat-spydercos-and-benchmades-lunches.1660721/page-4
Click to expand...
No. They outsource designs to factories. They used Lionsteel and various Chinese and some Taiwan factories. But generally they fail at the execution or design some how. Even Lionsteel couldn't make a hit for them in higher quality. It's just not what they do. They seem to be content failing at providing good knives for the higher end customer and selling gimmicks at super low quality at marked up prices. They make a fair bit of coin doing so, so why would they change, especially when they know they fail at the higher end.
 
Mo2 said:
They used Lionsteel and various Chinese and some Taiwan factories.
Click to expand...
Yes they outsource to those factories (a. o.). I never had a CRKT knife in hand but it's funny to read the Bladehq customer product reviews for the pilar versions because about half of them are critical (with 3 stars rating or less) and revolve around the fit and build quality, which the buyers had to fix by themselves. Only then was the CRKT product all nice and worthy 5 stars.
I am having my eyes on the tan G10 version but neither Bladehq nor CRKT has currently plans to produce another batch, the special version is simply out of stock and out of production and the responsibles have moved on and take care of other business/projects/plans, great! :confused:

Instead of waiting until they revisit the old project and start planning to produce a new batch, i am building my own pilar tan G10 clone ;)

Just ordered tan G10 parts and will slap them on my newly acquired Techno2 :p. If i do a good job, the end result will look as good and probably be the better version of the pilar tan G10 whadda ya think? :D
 
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