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Newt Livesay

C

Cliff Stamp

BANNED
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Joined
Oct 5, 1998
Messages
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I ordered a RCM on Nov. 3, paid for the blade and was told to expect it in three weeks. That date came and passed which didn't surprise me as I figured they hadn't accounted for the newfie postal system which can cause little delays (just ask Jerry Busse and Earl Stewart).

Anyway, after 4 months the blade arrived. I don't have a problem with the time but don't appreciate the bait and switch on the delivery date. I can understand that military orders and other things can cause delays. However it would not be impossible to set up an email list and set out regular updates.

-Cliff
 
Bait and switch??????
That is a very serious charge against someone!!!!!
Do you mean he offered to sell you a knife for cheap, then switched it to a more expensive one with out your knowledge??

Or are you somehow trying to insinuate that not shipping on a date certain is bait and switch?

Hardly a charge a Bladeforums.com moderator should be throwing around unless it can be proven. If it is bait and switch, have you notified the police or the atty general?
The postal service?
Since bait and switch is a legal term, have you made sure of the definition??
Are you trying to legally prosecute the person?
Or just defame him on the forums.

I can understand someone putting the facts about a deal gone south on the forum, but charging someone with this and other terms seems to me a bit much.
Just my opinion, and probably only matters just to me.
Hate to see this great forum or the people on it damaged by charges like this.

Jim
 
I have to agree with Cliff on this one. Sometimes delivery time is a factor in my decision on whether I buy or not. A maker will tell me the wait is a year and I just write it off. I dont even know if Ill be alive in a year. If you tell me three weeks then I really do expect that it will be three weeks.If that is what I was told. Now I can understand a week or even two over an estimated time but months is totally unacceptable. If the delivery time influenced my decision to buy then it is indeed bait and switch.

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ALex

http://home.att.net./~a.boriqua

[This message has been edited by Boriqua (edited 03-04-2000).]
 
Jim :

bait and switch is a legal term
Click to expand...

I have seen it used as a general term for describing the conditions of an agreement and then altering the terms after the deal is made - this was my understanding of its meaning.

For example if I asked Newt for a RTAK to review under the condition that I would return it after the review but then kept the blade - I would have called that a bait and switch on the ownership of the blade.

From your post I assume the legal term applies just to matters of money. Do you have a reference for this?

Hardly a charge a Bladeforums.com moderator should be throwing around unless it can be proven.
Click to expand...

This is a good point. I can't actually prove the date was undercut on purpose. I will retract the above and modify it to read :

"I don't have a problem with the time but do not appreciate the fact that no attempt was made to notify me of any delay and in fact multiple delivery times were quoted which were never made."

-Cliff
 
If Paid by credit card, Cliff gave Newt a 4 month interest free loan. Newt charges your credit card first, and then delivers the knife. Bait and switch does not fit this situation. Working the "FLOAT" might be ethically questionable. I understand Busse also works the "FLOAT" for knives on order. Merchandise should only be charged for on a credit card when it is shipped. Military orders and such should be figured in the greater scheme of the business model. The individual also probably pays more for his piece than a Military contract. The Goverment usually pays on a progressive schedule, so the vendor is not out of pocket, but they also realize the do not wish to be his banker.

Floyd
 
This is not what I consider "bait and switch". If you had ordered a new RCM and he sent you a used knife or a different cheaper model of knife, then that is "bait and switch". Product delivered not as ordered, to benefit seller.

My question is have you contacted Newt about the delay before posting. A transaction is a two way street, if I have ordered a product and it has not been delivered in a reasonable time, I am on the phone or e-mail to the seller. If you did not want to wait, Newt probably would have cancelled your order. If you do not contact the seller about late delivery, how do they know that you are unhappy. I have not ordered a BM for that reason. It is not worth the wait and I won't pay an artificially high price for one.

I have ordered several knives from Newt including the RCM and have never waited more than a week for delivery.

I also feel that a forum moderator should remain impartial at least until all of the facts are known. Since your post does not mention the fact that you contacted Newt about the late delivery or wanted your money back, I see no harm, no foul. Now, if you had contacted him and he refused you a refund after a reasonable time, then he is wrong.

I would never pay for any product in advance unless it was being custom made for me and then only a deposit.

My thoughts,

sarge
 
I agree with you Cliff. I think alot of it has to do with the popularity of his knives. I theink they have a hard time keeping up. I don't think that is a valid excuse though. I hope this doesn't turn into a "trash Cliff for saying something percieved as negative about Newt thread". I remember I made a statement and got trashed by Newt and others on Newt's forum. It really made me feel bad about the whole situation.

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Dennis Bible
 
"I don't have a problem with the time but do not appreciate the fact that no attempt was made to notify me of any delay and in fact multiple delivery times were quoted which were never made."

-Cliff

To the point, factual, and noninflammatory.
Cliff, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
Jim
 
This has nothing to do with "trashing Cliff", it is simple problem resolution. If Cliff was unhappy after not receiving his RCM in a week, then he should have contacted Newt and asked where his knife was. If Newt could not deliver in a time frame suitable for Cliff, then a refund should have been issued, but since Cliff never inquired about the delivery he got it much later. We have no way of knowing if the order was lost, then found, if the RCM was backordered, or if it was just FUBAR. More facts must be known or given in a complaint. If you have a problem at least try to resolve it with the other party before whining about it here. If this was attempted by Cliff, he did not state it in his post. If you do not like a particular forum member, knife maker, dealer or manufacturer, it's simple, don't deal with them, take your business elsewhere. Vote with your money, patronize others.
 
Sarge, I think you missed this
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:
"I don't have a problem with the time but do not appreciate the fact that no attempt was made to notify me of any delay and in fact multiple delivery times were quoted which were never made."

-Cliff
Click to expand...

Cliff says right there that multiple delivery times were quoted then missed. That says to me that he made the effort to find what the status of the knife was - ergo he has a valid bitch about this.

Is it in the same league as the problems buyers have with wait times on Custom Emersons? IMHO, no.

However, without more information, it does sound like Cliff was "baited" with the 1 week delivery time and then "switched" to the later ones. You'll note he was very specific that he specified bait and switch on the delivery time, *NOT* the product, so let's not blow the term out of proportion, ok? Let's all look closer at what people write before we get all hot under the collar and go jumping off the handle, ok?
smile.gif


Likewise, if Newt had extenuating circumstances (for me, Military Orders is a very acceptable extenuating circumstance), then I too would understand the delay.

But from what I read here, Cliff made the extra effort to find out where his knife was. I'd like to hear both sides of this before any of us makes any judgement on the issue, ok?

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Originally posted by sarge:

My question is have you contacted Newt about the delay before posting. A transaction is a two way street, if I have ordered a product and it has not been delivered in a reasonable time, I am on the phone or e-mail to the seller.
Click to expand...

I dont feel that it is the responsibility of the BUYER to chase down an order. It is the responsibility of the seller (lets forget its Newt) to keep his or hers customers apprised of the situation. If the order was going to be delayed for any reason then the SELLER should contact his customers and let them know. For some reason I feel as if we often treat knife makers with a different set of rules than we do all other buyer seller relationships. Good, honest and timely service is what wins and keeps customers. If Im laying out my very hard earned cash on something, the seller should indeed stretch to make me happy. Im fairly well sick of the "a million people want my product, screw you I dont have to worry about customer service" "You dont want it someone else does." Its the reason I will never own a Maddog. Most of us here at the forums are Mutiple multiple multipe knife owners. I think Goucho has Jerry Hossom busy for years to come. A maker should consider that you may be back for more and it could very well be dependent on his customer experience more than the knife. I have dropped over a thousand dollars with Ricky Fowler over the last year. Why? I felt like I was treated like a good and valued customer and not like a bother to serve. Everyday on this very forum we hear ugly complaints about forum member transactions where a person said he would ship on X and it didnt arrive. They are usually put before the forum firing squad. Why should it be any different for a maker. Fair and honest means that if you tell me X date then it should be shipped X date and if there is anything that will delay you it is up to you to contact me and let me know so I dont feel ripped off. I know many of us have favorite makers and want to defend there reputation but imagine this were the buying of a car or furniture or a birthday present for your wife or child. Would this be acceptable then? Just bad business. Im glad this came up. I hope other makers follow this thread. It is something that needs addressing. I dont mind four months just tell me from the begining four months.
My 2 ... ok 5 cents


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ALex

http://home.att.net./~a.boriqua
 
Spark your right, I did miss that. (Sorry Cliff) That's what I get for not using my reading glasses.

However, If I was unhappy with the constant delays, I would have requested a refund from my charge card. If he refused to credit my card then I'd been unhappy. I have no particular alliegance to Newt and was not hot under the collar, I can only relate my own personal experiences. The world is full of small problems that become large problems because people cannot seem to resolve their situations. That's why soon attorneys will outnumber us all. If we would learn to communicate with each other it would be a better world and forum and that's why moderator's are needed to add a voice of reason and impartiality.

Cliff, does not say that he requested a refund and was refused, only that he was told several (numerous) erroneous shipping dates, again during that time, If he was unhappy, ask (demand) a refund. Contrary, to the other post, if you are not your own advocate in life, no one else will be either with the exception of probably your Mother and Father.

A difference of opinion is not an attack, but just that, a different perspective of the same issue. "Bait and Switch" is a strong accusation and I do not feel that it is/was justified in this situation. Cliff was aware of the constant delays, in contact with Livesay and still did not request a refund to display his unhappiness.

Delivery time is an important factor to me also. A week is an acceptable delivery time in my part of the world. I do not purchase or contract work that cannot be delivered or completed in a time that is reasonable and agreed upon by both parties before the deal is struck. Insist that no one charge your card until shipment has been made.

From the second of Cliff's post in regards to this matter:
_____________________________________________
"I don't have a problem with the time but do not appreciate the fact that no attempt was made to notify me of any delay and in fact multiple delivery times were quoted which were never made."
_____________________________________________

Well, now it seems that Cliff was not upset about delivery time but lack of communication and missed delivery dates. (Someone was communicating with updated and missed delivery dates) This is definetly a customer service problem, but not "bait and switch". In the times that I have called Arkansas to order a knife from Newt's company, I can definitely tell you that he does not have a customer service department and if it is an apologly from Newt that he is waiting on I wish Cliff, good luck.

One other thing that I feel that I must add, I've read Newt's forum enough to know that "Right or Wrong, Newt Livesay does not need defending, he can defend himself in any situation."

Also, my last post on this particular topic (promise) because it appears to be an exercise in futility.


[This message has been edited by sarge (edited 03-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by sarge (edited 03-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by sarge (edited 03-05-2000).]
 
I'm not taking sides on this, as it doesn't concern me, and I also have a lot of respect for both parties involved. Cliff certainly doesn't need me to defend him either. That being said, I have a link saved from Newts forum where Cliff contacted Newt publicly about the delays. The only reason I have it saved is because Cliff referenced it in one of his post's quite a while ago. I had never been to Newt's forum (I didn't even know Newt had one until Cliff's post) so I clicked on it and saved it for future trips to Newt's forum. If I remember right, Newt told Cliff that his suppliers were late with his latest shipment of Kydex and steel. He also said that a rash of sickness had gone through his shop as well as the holidays slowing things down. I'm sure Cliff can reference this thread again if he feels the need.

Take care,
Jim
 
After I posted the above message, I clicked on the thread from Newt's forum. I should have clicked on it BEFORE I posted. In the latest addition to the thread, Cliff canceled his order on 3/1/00. He then posted on 3/4/00 saying that he received the RCM and to forget about canceling the order. Newt than apologized and told Cliff about how swamped with orders he has been and how he is changing his policy on what he tells customers their wait will be. It sounds as if Newt's business is starting to out grow his current capabilities. (Not unlike Busse.) People must be realizing what a bargain his knives really are. Anyway, it looks like it is being handled on Newt's forum so we can all go back to dreaming about knives.
smile.gif
In my case, that would be the RTAK I have on order.

Take care, (AND a big knife)
Jim
 
As Jim noted, Newt has informed customer service to give an expected date of 3-6 months on a RCM or RTAK. Problem solved.

-Cliff
 
It seems the busier Newt gets the worse his Customer service gets. I sent in a knife Jan 29th to get a Kydex Sheath made. On Feb 9th I was told it was comming home and should recieve it in a few days. Feb 18th no knife, 24 feb no knife feb 29th no knife and sent a e-mail.

As of today 9 Mar still do not have the knife and have not recieved any kind of reply from Newt.

While I dearly love the Air Assualt I have his customer service plain out stinks. A simple e-mail or post on his board would have been enough to keep me happy and so far I have not recieved anything from him.

Here is a link to the thread about the sheath. http://pub2.ezboard.com/flivesaykniveskydexsheathmaterials.showMessage?topicID=8.topic

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http://www.dd-b.net/RKBA/ http://www.tcsn.net/doncicci/freedom.htm http://home.earthlink.net/~spwenger/spwenger.html http://216.199.9.84/Misc/library/Metal_and_Wood.html
 
In regards to paying up front for product, and receiving it in the future. There are no laws stating that any one who takes credit cards for payment can not charge you the entire amount up front. Citi Bank, and AT&T credit card companies, are one in the same after a recent buy out by Citi Bank. You may in their case dispute a charge up to 90 days after your card has been charged for merchandise. You may then leave that item in dispute for another 90 days. While the item is in dispute, it does not accrue periodic charges, nor do you have to pay, until that dispute has been resolved.If you are promised a product in a given time frame and the excuses roll, then put that item in dispute before 90 days. If you wait longer than 90 days you are out of luck. If an item is given as a 3-6 Month delivery, and the vendor wants all his money upfront, wait 30 days, and put the item in dispute. The only reason you need is that you have been charged, and have not received the product. Check with your own credit provider to see if their time limits etc differ. The blade cuts in both directions !

Floyd
 
Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer etc.(it would be kewl if we could afford to pay a lawyer to hang out on this forum and give out legal advice, though....)

There is a federal law in the US that says mail order businesses must fill orders within 30 days and if they cannot do that they must either get the customer's written consent to the delay or refund the customer's money. There are restrictions on taking deposits more than 30 days in advance of delivery even with the customer's written consent. IIRC any advance payments must be placed in an interest-bearing account and all interest earned credited to the customer. Again, I am not a lawyer etc....

I'm not sure whether the US "bait & switch" law covers making false promises about delivery date or not.

Next time I stop by the library I'm going to see what I can find on consumer law ... if we can't afford a forum lawyer at least we could have a better-informed dork with a modem....

-Cougar :{)
 
Hey as a point of reference let me please get my 2 cents in here. I ship hundreds of orders out every month to customers all over the world. To my knowledge we have had less than a dozen customers who we couldn't please for some reason when it comes to delivery, product, etc. We are a small company with more business than we can handle. A example of this is that as of March 2nd, 2000 we have one customer that ordered 4600 pieces from us. Our delivery times are going to get a lot longer, and we may in the near future discontinue sales too outside retail customers, and go strictly to dealers, etc. However until then if you have a problem you need to contact us via the telephone if you are serious about our customer service. I apologize to anyone who has a legitimate complaint.
Newt Livesay
Wicked Knife Cutlery & Manufacturing Company
 
Hey that's me getting impatient while wating for my knife and it's new sheath to arive home. I'm a info junkie and really like/need to know what's going on. I was just extremly frustrated about being told it had been shipped and then nothing else, even after a couple of questions on Newt's forum.

Personally I think this is just growing pains of a small company producing such outstanding knives and having to deal with more and more customers wanting more knives.

I've waited in the past for knives and am sure I'll wait again in the future, it's just not knowing that I'll be wating is what gets me wondering. I did recieve a reply to my e-mail from Joda when Newt was out of town, but nothing from Newt.

Could it be possible for WKC to have sombody in the office take over the responsibility of the web site and forum? This could free Newt up from that but he could still drop in once in a while.

Don't get me wrong here without a doubt Newt's knives are excellent and I'm trying to scrape togeather enough to order a RTAK. If I end up wating 4-6 months after paying So what??? How long do you wait for Randall, Busse or other better known knife artists.
 
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