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Niobium-Alloyed Knife Steels Explained - S110V, S35VN, Niolox, and More

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by Larrin, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    Sergeua, Mo2, RBid and 12 others like this.
  2. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade, Custom Knives Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Mar 22, 2014
    This something the forum has needed for a long time. I remember 5 years ago the constant arguments about what was better between Vanadium Carbides and Niobium Carbides but no one really had anything valuable to share besides bickering. It's Facinating to see the advantages of Niobium alloy in knife steel with the knowledge of "how" and "why." Rather then just because it sounds cooler :D

    Very useful, I'll keep my eyes out for that New Niobium steel.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  3. jbmonkey

    jbmonkey Platinum Member Platinum Member

    Jun 9, 2011
    good topic and well written. thank you Sir.
     
    Larrin likes this.
  4. dirc

    dirc

    Jan 31, 2018
    interesting to note that aeb-l (& 13c26) is still the king of stainless toughness for knife / chopper / smaller sword use ... pretty amazing given that it has no Moly, no V, and no Nb

    it begs the question, just how can it achieve such great toughness without any of these grain growth inhibiting elements

    (edited to add: yes I know its due to the low amount of carbon at about 0.67% : well below the eutectoid point)
     
    Larrin likes this.
  5. Alberta Ed

    Alberta Ed

    Jun 29, 1999
    Thanks, very interesting (although beyond my limited technical understanding:(). I find S35Vn easier to sharpen than S30V; that pinch of niobium makes a significant difference IMHO.
     
    K.O.D. likes this.
  6. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    It’s not the grain size that gives AEB-L its toughness, as you said it’s the carbides. Adding chromium shifts the position of the eutectoid, however. AEB-L is definitely hypereutectoid. It doesn’t require such high austenitizing temperatures that it really need grain size pinning additions. Perhaps a small Nb addition would help it out, who knows.
     
    DeadboxHero likes this.
  7. inkynate

    inkynate

    Sep 4, 2010
    I was always a little surprised the B70P mule released by Spyderco didn't receive much attention, and in fact still hasn't sold out. I get that it doesn't move the needle like the more extreme alloys, but it seems like a very nice balance of properties for a cutlery steel.

    I'm glad I have a couple of the mules, would be great to see it used in a folder.
     
    Larrin likes this.
  8. dirc

    dirc

    Jan 31, 2018
    Larrin, please post the version of this graph which takes into account higher chromium? What is the actual eutectoid point for aeb-l style steel?
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    [​IMG]
     
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  10. dirc

    dirc

    Jan 31, 2018
    the steel rabbit hole runs really deep... if I read that right, 0% Cr steel has an eutectoid point of 0.75% C in your graph... (vs 0.83% in mine?) -- is the difference due to small amounts of Mo or Mn which are not shown? (or something else?)

    and please confirm that 12% Cr steel is at 0.4% C for the eutectoid?
     
  11. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    Typical eutectoid is around 0.77C, though there is some variation, like you said other alloying elements can shift it slightly. And yes it is around 0.4%C for 12%Cr.
     
    dirc likes this.
  12. MolokaiRider

    MolokaiRider Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 13, 2017
    Thanks for sharing your work. I’ve read it twice now and most likely will scan through it again.
     
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  13. halden.doerge

    halden.doerge I'll Sharpen Your Knife Gold Member

    Aug 17, 2014
    A very helpful article, thanks again as always, @Larrin !
     
    Larrin likes this.
  14. RBid

    RBid

    Apr 6, 2014
    Thank you. That was a great read!
     
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  15. Night Rider

    Night Rider Gold Member Gold Member

    Apr 16, 2018
    Thanks for that Larrin. I have a folder dedicated for your charts and information :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
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  16. Cycletroll

    Cycletroll Gold Member Gold Member

    406
    Feb 28, 2015
    Thanks Larrin!
    Helps me to understand why I like s35vn so much!
     
    Larrin likes this.
  17. Larrin

    Larrin Gold Member Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Gold Member

    Jan 17, 2004
    Thanks guys.
     
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  18. 21bangbang

    21bangbang

    211
    Jan 19, 2019
    Way above my pay grade and didn't understand a lot of it. Yet a good read, and I now know a bit more about steel. You have a talent for making the general idea laymen friendly and not just spewing data. Very interesting stuff.
     
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  19. DeadboxHero

    DeadboxHero Triple B Handmade, Custom Knives Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Mar 22, 2014
    No man, Thank YOU.

    your work is a HUGE benefit to the community. It will trickle not only into custom knives I make but larger companies will use this information to get better performing knives into regular guys hands.

    We appreciate it. Keep it up.



     
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