Nitro V - hard to sharpen or …..?

[chalby]

Some people can:

This is just my opinion, but there is no way he would not be creating a burr towards the end of those scrubbing motions. Those finishing touches he does is for burr reduction and edge refinement.

When he talks about not wanting to create a burr, I believe what he is essentially saying is not to create a large burr and I agree with that. That's why I said that I don't like to grind away on one side for more than a few passes before switching sides. He also starts with a very clean edge bevel that he dulls by making two very uniform passes on the stone, meaning he will have a much easier time getting back a uniform edge without having to remove extra material as you would if you were sharpening a dull knife with little chips or rolls in the edge.

I think experience has taught him to essentially not need to feel for the burr and just use light to tell him where he is at. For the record, Cliff Stamp was an absolute legend and many people including myself learned a hell of a lot from his videos and tests.

There are methods to sharpen without using the often recommended burr detection method, but I believe it's the most practical method for most people. The truth is though that creating a burr can be detrimental to the quality of the edge, which is why it is best to aim at creating as small a burr as possible and learn to feel or look for a very small burr (IMO).

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

This is just my opinion, but there is no way he would not be creating a burr towards the end of those scrubbing motions. Those finishing touches he does is for burr reduction and edge refinement.

When he talks about not wanting to create a burr, I believe what he is essentially saying is not to create a large burr and I agree with that. That's why I said that I don't like to grind away on one side for more than a few passes before switching sides. He also starts with a very clean edge bevel that he dulls by making two very uniform passes on the stone, meaning he will have a much easier time getting back a uniform edge without having to remove extra material as you would if you were sharpening a dull knife with little chips or rolls in the edge.

I think experience has taught him to essentially not need to feel for the burr and just use light to tell him where he is at. For the record, Cliff Stamp was an absolute legend and many people including myself learned a hell of a lot from his videos and tests.

There are methods to sharpen without using the often recommended burr detection method, but I believe it's the most practical method for most people. The truth is though that creating a burr can be detrimental to the quality of the edge, which is why it is best to aim at creating as small a burr as possible and learn to feel or look for a very small burr (IMO).

Large burrs have been a very real problem for me, particularly on hard d2. I've had a bastard of a time removing them and I'm always worried about rounding the apex when I do. I never considered the fact that I was sharpening too long on one side.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Large burrs have been a very real problem for me, particularly on hard d2. I've had a bastard of a time removing them and I'm always worried about rounding the apex when I do. I never considered the fact that I was sharpening too long on one side.

When I make my edges I use cardboard as a tool.
I grind some steel, sharpen on my stones, then cut cardboard boxes.
I grind, sharpen, cut.... Repeating over and over.
Eventually geting nice and sharp.

And with steels like D2, cutting cardboard just makes them better and better.
Taking down any burrs.
I could cut cardboard All day with Mine.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

This is just my opinion, but there is no way he would not be creating a burr towards the end of those scrubbing motions. Those finishing touches he does is for burr reduction and edge refinement.

When he talks about not wanting to create a burr, I believe what he is essentially saying is not to create a large burr and I agree with that. That's why I said that I don't like to grind away on one side for more than a few passes before switching sides. He also starts with a very clean edge bevel that he dulls by making two very uniform passes on the stone, meaning he will have a much easier time getting back a uniform edge without having to remove extra material as you would if you were sharpening a dull knife with little chips or rolls in the edge.

I think experience has taught him to essentially not need to feel for the burr and just use light to tell him where he is at. For the record, Cliff Stamp was an absolute legend and many people including myself learned a hell of a lot from his videos and tests.

There are methods to sharpen without using the often recommended burr detection method, but I believe it's the most practical method for most people. The truth is though that creating a burr can be detrimental to the quality of the edge, which is why it is best to aim at creating as small a burr as possible and learn to feel or look for a very small burr (IMO).

This.^ Exactly.

There's really no such thing as fully apexing an edge AND not creating a burr at the same time. But apexing can still be done while still minimizing how much of a burr forms in the first place.

Cliff even mentioned in the video that he was already familiar with the blade and the steel, and how it responds to sharpening on that stone. That's key to the whole thing. With that familiarity he can also more quickly gauge when the edge is very nearly apexed and can begin lightening his touch to slow down burr formation. And with those very light, higher-angle finishing passes, part of his 'refinement' of the edge also includes scrubbing off what little bits of burr are very likely there. That is always part of edge refinement, whether we choose to think of it in those terms or not. Those refining passes, done with that kind of experience and familiarity, make it possible to ensure that whatever burr remnants might be there are essentially insignificant when it finally comes to using the edge to cut things. That's when the distinguishing line between sharpening to 'no burr at all' and sharpening to 'absolute minimal burring' becomes essentially moot anyway.

Forming a burr isn't a big deal anyway. It's part of the process and part of the learning curve. And overstressing how bad a thing it's perceived to be is largely overblown. So, when one is first trying to learn how to properly sharpen while still not being familiar with the behavior of the steel or the stone, or the interaction between those two things in tandem, it's always good to form just enough burr to detect, so you know for certain you're making progress.

Don't sweat the burrs. A lot can be learned about sharpening and about the character of individual steel types by simply watching how their burrs form and how difficult they may be (or may not be) to clean up. That's much more a useful thing than a bad thing.

 

[chalby]

...Forming a burr isn't a big deal anyway. It's part of the process and part of the learning curve. And overstressing how bad of a thing it's perceived to be is largely overblown. So, when one is first trying to learn how to properly sharpen while still not being familiar with the behavior of the steel or the stone, or the interaction between those two things in tandem, it's always good to form just enough burr to detect, so you know for certain you're making progress.

Don't sweat the burrs. A lot can be learned about sharpening and about the character of individual steel types by simply watching how their burrs form and how difficult they may be (or may not be) to clean up. That's much more a useful thing than a bad thing.

I think you can get away with large burrs, so yes it can be overstated. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

This is not by any means a universal truth, just my experience: The larger the burr, the more work you generally need to do to finesse off the burr to end up with an optimum edge. It's not that you can't get a great edge starting with a large burr. It's not the end of the world.

I think what some people do though is either break off a large burr in one go and end up with an edge that ends up being a bit ragged and not as good as it could be for sharpness or edge retention, or do some quick deburring and wonder why they still have a burr or they lose sharpness really quickly not understanding they still have a stubborn burr that has rolled over the edge.

 

[Grasshopperglock]

You know, the majority of knife owners will never experience what a truly sharp edge is.

Until you hand one over and they do that thumb rub over the blade. And it draws blood.

A real deal, sharp to your dreams, edge.

 

[ac3boyz]

Terry, I have a Volunteer fixed blade in Nitro V that I've sharpened on my WE and have found it's fairly easy to raise a burr and I'm no sharpening expert. I started at 20 dps with 400 grit stones and got a burr pretty quickly. Some things to consider:

1. With my aging eyesight and using the sharpie method, it sometimes appears that I'm reaching the apex but when I use a loupe I can see that I'm not quite there.
2. Are you using an angle cube? You may very well be aware of this, but depending on the height of the edge in the vise, the angle settings on the WE aren't necessarily correct.
3. If you aren't reaching the apex at 20 degrees because the factory angle is higher, dropping to a 100 degree or courser stone may help speed up the process.
4. Personally, if I'm not hitting the apex after a reasonable time, I often increase the angle by 0.5 degrees until I begin to feel a burr. and proceed from there.

At the correct angle, you shouldn't have any trouble getting a burr with NitroV.

 

[TheOne45]

From technical standpoint burr is damaged or we could say weakened steel.
But at the end of the sharpening you remove this burr (damaged steel) so there should be no problem.

I also think Cliff created a burr when he could see no reflections from the edge .... I guess a very small burr but still a burr.

Not long ago I asked here in other thread how would I get sharp and burr free edge only with my folding diamond sharpener (#320 and #600) and nothing else. I got a ton of answers such as use car glass or gun barrel or creek stone or my jeans or whatever to deburr. They didn't understand what I was trying to say so I quit asking.
There are three ways to remove a burr:
-fold the burr and cut it off
-with 'wrap-around' effect which you get by using any form of strop (leather, linen, jeans, wood, microfiber cloth)
Cliff in his video showed us the third way. Before saying anything I would ask if anyone noticed….he was sharpening the knife and observing the edge under the light and when there was no reflection from the edge he started those edge leading alternating passes with minimum force.
I haven't seen his video before but found some time ago another guy on the internet who explained this technique. I tried it and it works.

Anyone noticed what Cliff did when starting those light alternating passes?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

From technical standpoint burr is damaged or we could say weakened steel.
But at the end of the sharpening you remove this burr (damaged steel) so there should be no problem.

I also think Cliff created a burr when he could see no reflections from the edge .... I guess a very small burr but still a burr.

Not long ago I asked here in other thread how would I get sharp and burr free edge only with my folding diamond sharpener (#320 and #600) and nothing else. I got a ton of answers such as use car glass or gun barrel or creek stone or my jeans or whatever to deburr. They didn't understand what I was trying to say so I quit asking.
There are three ways to remove a burr:
-fold the burr and cut it off
-with 'wrap-around' effect which you get by using any form of strop (leather, linen, jeans, wood, microfiber cloth)
Cliff in his video showed us the third way. Before saying anything I would ask if anyone noticed….he was sharpening the knife and observing the edge under the light and when there was no reflection from the edge he started those edge leading alternating passes with minimum force.
I haven't seen his video before but found some time ago another guy on the internet who explained this technique. I tried it and it works.

Anyone noticed what Cliff did when starting those light alternating passes?

I noticed. It's the same thing I do, so I was watching for that. For me, the goal in doing it is to very, very gently thin whatever burr is there, until it becomes so fragile that it'll come off with the first cut in most anything, even in paper. I'm always test-cutting in paper as I go, in the refinement portion of sharpening. So when it gets to those last few featherlight passes and I make a cut in paper, sometimes I'll notice a little snag or slip in one cut through the paper (reveals presence of a burr), after which it zips effortlessly and repeatedly through the paper on subsequent cuts. That's when I can tell the little bit of burr has come off and no longer impedes cutting. And that's when the edge is done and ready for use.

 

[TheOne45]

If you watch closely you will see Cliff increased the knife angle and he was basicly doing a micro bevel.
This is also one of the ways to remove (cut off) the burr if you only use a stone.
As he said the edge is very aggresive but apparently burr free.
For more refined (less aggresive) edge high angle passes could be done on finer stone.

Here is one more way to sharpen and remove the burr with only #325 and #600 diamond plate and get hair whittling edge.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

If you watch closely you will see he increased the knife angle and he was basicly doing a micro bevel.
This is also one of the ways to remove (cut off) the burr if you only use a stone.
As he said the edge is very aggresive but apparently burr free.
For more refined (less aggresive) edge high angle passes could be done on finer stone.

I also noticed he raised the angle a bit for those finishing passes. I've recently grown to like that little bit of microbeveling in the last pass or two. Just the tiniest microbevel adds stability to the edge, narrows the apex width and also seems to work very well for the last bit of deburring. I usually do it on a medium or fine ceramic after setting the edge on something coarser, which is usually anything from DMT XC through an India Fine.

 

[garry3]

I'm not familiar with the sharpening system or the knife steel, but I can tell you that if you take alternating edge leading strokes it might be pretty tough to feel any kind of burr. I don't know if it was used that way, just saying.

I think Cliff was talking about a foil edge more than a burr. Either way I would consider his edge micro beveled.


Not everyone is a burr sharpener, it's not the only way. Some reduce as they go and some never raise much of a burr.

Most of the old instructions for oil stones specified alternating edge leading strokes and there is no mention of burrs or burr removal here...

https://danswhetstone.com/dans-instructions/

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I'm not familiar with the sharpening system or the knife steel, but I can tell you that if you take alternating edge leading strokes it might be pretty tough to feel any kind of burr. I don't know if it was used that way, just saying.

I think Cliff was talking about a foil edge more than a burr. Either way I would consider his edge micro beveled.


Not everyone is a burr sharpener, it's not the only way. Some reduce as they go and some never raise much of a burr.

Most of the old instructions for oil stones specified alternating edge leading strokes and there is no mention of burrs or burr removal here...

https://danswhetstone.com/dans-instructions/

I don't rely too much on actually feeling or even directly seeing the burr in the finishing steps. The skin on my finger pads is a bit too thick, dry & insensitive to do that at my age (early 60s). And my aging eyes have issues as well. Although under bright light, even the tiniest of burrs will usually reflect a bright spot along the edge to reveal themselves, even if my vision is a bit blurry at close inspection distance.

That's why I rely more on the cutting tests in paper to tell me if a burr of any significance is there. The little snags & slips seen in a SLOW cut into fine paper (phonebook pages, receipt paper, etc.) will reveal if it's there. And more so, if it's erratic from one pass to another, indicating the burr (or foil) is very flimsy and moving back & forth with each cut.

And a hair-shaving test done from both sides of the edge will also reveal a burr that's leaning to one side or the other. When the burr leans into the skin, it'll shave. But flip the blade over, after which the burr is leaning up and away from the skin, and it won't shave.

Edited to add:
Looked at that video link from Dan's, after replying here earlier. As the video is presented there, it looks mainly like the final refinement stage of sharpening they're demonstrating, using very light edge-leading strokes on finishing stones in a minimum of passes. Or just a light tune-up sharpening after the fact. In that sense, verifying the burr won't necessarily be important for someone familiar with the blade and sharpening it on those stones. I touched on it earlier - if the user is very familiar with the blade already and the edge is known to be within just a few strokes of being as sharp as expected, then an experienced sharpener may not be looking for the burr anyway, but instead just getting it back to functionally 'sharp' (by their own definition of that). I test edges by cutting paper, and if they meet my expectation for ease & repeatability of cutting, I don't necessarily feel a need to verify I formed a new burr. That's because I recognize how the edge cuts and how that directly compares to cutting with an edge that I did verify for a burr and then cleaned it up, which produces a certain threshold of sharpness I'm looking for. Once I see that threshold of sharpness reached, I don't feel the need to look for a burr, except to make sure it's fully cleaned up from the edge and not getting in the way of easy cutting.

I do believe it's more important to verify a burr if a new edge is being completely reground, using coarser stones.

 

[TheOne45]

I agree with all you say, Garry.
There are different methods to get sharp and burr free edge.
I just like to experiment and play.

 

[TheOne45]

And a hair-shaving test done from both sides of the edge will also reveal a burr that's leaning to one side or the other.

Sometimes you get more resilient burr which acts as an edge and shaves hair but when you cut into something it bends and stops shaving.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Sometimes you get more resilient burr which acts as an edge and shaves hair but when you cut into something it bends and stops shaving.

Agreed. I do the shaving test to find a leaning burr if it's there, and then alternate between that and cutting in paper or wood, and then testing shaving again.

With the simpler steels I usually use everyday, I wouldn't expect it to keep shaving for long, as a shaving edge is usually too fragile for other EDC uses. But the real test that hasn't failed me is the cutting in fine paper repeatedly and reliably, even after other test cuts into wood or whatever. If it can do that, I know with certainty the edge is as fully sharp as it needs to be for my uses, and is also durable.

 

[TheOne45]

But the real test that hasn't failed me is the cutting in fine paper repeatedly and reliably, even after other test cuts into wood or whatever. If it can do that, I know with certainty the edge is as fully sharp as it needs to be for my uses, and is also durable.

I didn't understand the part if you do some cuts into wood for testing the edge or not but I do same test with paper. When the knife cuts paper I do a few cuts into the wood. If the knife still cuts paper after wood I call it good enough.

 

[TheOne45]

Most of the old instructions for oil stones specified alternating edge leading strokes and there is no mention of burrs or burr removal here...

I can't comment because I have never used oil stones but if you fully form the apex there at least a tiny amount of metal goes to the other side if cutting is involved.
In the video the second oil stone looked like very high grit so I guess the burr would be so refined it would tear of the edge after first use. But somehow odd to me... the video does not demonstrate the sharpness of the knife after sharpening so who knows if their sharpening works.

In some cases micro chipping of the edge could prevent the formation of a burr but I think this only happens with diamond plates.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I didn't understand the part if you do some cuts into wood for testing the edge or not but I do same test with paper. When the knife cuts paper I do a few cuts into the wood. If the knife still cuts paper after wood I call it good enough.

That's pretty much what I do as well. Mainly checking to see if the edge remains stable & strong after cutting into the wood, as verified by the paper cutting afterward. Sometimes, for curiosity's sake, I'll also check to see if it still shaves hair. If it does, that's great too and tells a lot about the character of the steel. But it's not so much an expectation of mine.