No flames last time. Lets try agian.

Back about a million years ago…
I was a huge 7.62 guy. There is no doubt that it is a better mankilling round than the 5.56.
Every thing about it is better. Even the fear it causes on hard surface impact on the other end.

Then I ran out of ammo.
Then I ran out again.
So then I said, well fck it. Everyone will carry 7.62. We will have a larger ammo pool.
We ran dry.
Next day EVERY one was using 5.56. We switched to m203’s, and the SAW.
Remember what it is that wins the gunfight?
Fire superiority. That translates to fire power. Not weight but rate (VOLUME).
If your BG’s can’t fight back, well…
The fact is, it doesn’t really matter. Teamwork and intelligence win the fight. Usually.

A lot of reference to “Black Hawk Down”.
Remember that what hasn’t been published about the battle of Mog is, well….a lot.
(that is my way of saying it bugs me when people talk about it third person) It doesn’t drive me over the edge or anything. Just bums me out.

Nearly every time someone first fires a weapon at another person (in battle) they are let down by the ability of their weapons system. It just doesn’t work like in the movies.
A lot of people these days are talking about “failure drill”.
Most people know about it. Two to the chest, one to the head.
Im shocked at how many people think this is a weapons malfunction drill.
Gun has a failure, clear the failure, shoot two to the chest one to the head.
Failure drill started out as FAILURE TO FALL. People don’t go down. It happens all the time.
Whether from body armor or they just don’t know you killed them. Battle is confusing sht. Especially when you have been shot.
Also, don’t forget that the range of a firefight is usually between 5 and 150 feet.
Therefor…my choice in a gunfight? 5.56mm.
Bumble bees sting harder, but you can’t get away from all those damn hornets.

9mm vs 45acp.
I don’t want to be shot by either.
I usually carry a 1911 dropped on the right.
But also a 226 stuffed into a magpouch on my vest.
I know my rules disqualify this. I like the 226 because if I go to it. I really need those bullets quick, with out any reload issues.

My thoughts on 9mm vs 45acp are this.
If you are only carrying one weapon, a 9mm is a good choice. Remember “rate over weight”. Twice as many bullets in the same space.
That being said, I usually carry 45. :D

I would like to get an SV pistol some time though and try it out for carry. My hand is large enough for double stacked 45.

In the field…1911. It is THE battle hand gun.

Thanks for the great posts.


Ever Vigilant

Mick





RLTW
 
Another vote here for .45 launched from a 1911.
I have seen guys take hits from a 9mm with 147 JHP and they weren't impressed.

I have also seen guys take rounds from 5.56.
I would have to go with the 7.62 although I like the 5.56 firing platforms.
 
So Mick, does this look like a good combo to you? :D With my 11 1/2 inch barrel select fire M-16 with 100 round Beta C mag I am all set for a firefight in a phone booth! :D On the .45's, the only high cap 1911 style that fits my small hands worth a darn is the Kimber Polymer, I converted it to accept 14 round Para mags. I dont even own a .308, yet But soon!
 

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For most applications I think the 5.56 would be the best choice. The 7.62 is better for longer range and it penetrates light cover better, but the weight vs. volume thing would have to sway me. 30 rounds of 5.56 weighs about the same as 20 in 7.62, so if your out in the field 50% more ammo is alot. Also the 5.56 rifle weighs less. I do have an FAL with a ton of 7.62 at my "getaway" place up North. If there's some catastrophy and I'm hold up there, I'll have all the 7.62 ammo I need. Also I would likely be trying to engage my targets farther away. If anyone was to try to get to that place they would most likely be coming up the road and the 7.62 would not give them alot of protection in their vehicle. Once I'm on the move, it's 5.56.

I think the 9mm is a better back up weapon to your rifle. It gives you more rounds and weighs less. If weight and ammo are not an issue, then it's a .45 of course. Lately I'm really liking my 1911 in .40 with 16 round mags :).

In the 9 vs. .45 debate, alot of people use the "one shot stop" phrase to help suport their favorite caliber. With two to the chest, and one the to the head, I believe there is much less of a difference in the outcome regardless of which caliber.

These are only my humble opinions for now, and they may change by the end of this thread.
 
It has been my experience (and sh*t luck)to be invited to a firefight and to arrive completely outgunned. As retreat did not appear to be an option (mistake #1), and my back-up was coming from somewhere at some point, I figured I would just hold my ground, armed with my side-arm (.357) and a Remington 870 with Buck-shot. The Distance between me and the BG was 74 yards (mistake #2). It was a beautiful Saturday Morning and I figured nothing much ever happens and I was just too freakin lazy to sign out a .223, so I drove away and engaged in patrol duties with no AR-15 in my trunk (mistake#3).
During the initial 20 minutes, I was under heavy rifle fire. (A$$Hole had 13 hi-powered rifles and 2,000 rounds of ammo, placing weapons and ammo by each window in his house (two points BG). Furthermore he had mapped out his entire plan of attack (three points for the BG).

I was forced to leave my position of cover to direct a yellow Chevette away from the area. I had to turn my back to the house (BAD FREAKIN MOVE) and after kindly asking two elderly ladies to take a phucking hike, I turned to the house and caught the first two in the chest. The rounds did not penetrate the Tactical vest's trauma plate (ceramic), but did blow it to shreads. I was also wearing a second chance under my uniform shirt, but the rounds still busted my chest up and dropped one lung. I kept on trying to locate where the shooter was, but I never looked up. I was fixated on the window on the first floor of the home and had "tunnel vision". I NEVER looked up, for if I had, I would have seen him hanging halfway out the window aiming a scoped 30-06 at me. I did hear the shot, but the bullet impacted just below my left knee and I was now too busy pounding the pavement yelling Motha phucker!!!!!. I never looked up (BIGGEST MISTAKE OF THE DAY). Why didn't I take a rifle???????

Well he sat in that window and fired round after round until one caught the asphalt by my forehead and kicked up a piece of road and impaled it in my eyebrow. At that time, I knew I had to move or die. I moved to the other side of the vehicle and laid there waiting for the cavalry. I now had no vison of the house or the shooter, and was beginning to go into schock.

Long story why it took them two hours to extricate me, but I learned some very valuable lessons about going to a gunfight without the appropriate firepower, scanning the area and not getting tunnel vision, making a foolish decision not to retreat to better cover when I realized I was clearly out-gunned and was virtually "unarmed", and most importantly, I learned never to lose sight of my adversary, EVER.

Of course, what they said I did was "heroic", but I was a ten year "veteran" at the time and make more tactical errors than a rookie. If I had not been lazy and complacent in the very beginning, I would have drawn the vehicle's AR-15 prior to signing on duty. All the tactical gear was kept in the trunk (at the time) and as I never expected "anything" to happen in small town, NH on a beautiful saturday morning, I left it in the station. I paid a high price for complacency and the other tactical errors.

There remains no doubt that had I been equipped with a .223, I would have ended the fight within the first five minutes.............Ira

I also note that at the time I had never fired a handgun at a target from 75 yards. Then after being hit, my hands shook too much to even hold a handgun.
 
WOW, that's an amazing story. Glad to see that your still around with us today! One question; not that it was available any way, but from 75 yds. out, would a 7.62 have been able to penetrate through the area around the window where the shooter was?
 
Glad you made it wolfmann601-that's an amazing "re-count" of what happened. I probably would have soiled myself.

the failure to stop (2 to COM, 1 to head) is great in theory, however I know when adrenaline spikes, I'm scared, I'm moving and so is my target, (and it's probably dark-ish) the odds of me hitting a bobbing head is pretty small....and I think I practice a good bit and am pretty good. I guess you hope that the multiples to COM stops/stuns them enough so the head job drops them.
I guess am an ammo kinda guy, I'd go 9mm and 556 so I could carry more.
luckily I've never been in that situation.
cheers,
Derek
 
DAMN!!!
Welcome home Wolfmann601.

dwenslen,
I was not speaking of the drill as a practical application tool, but more to show that it is well known that your target may not go down. It would be kinda rough to run around ‘drilling' everyone. Lots of holes woks best in my book.
 
...break out the Beta 'C' Mag why don't cha...brat! Wow, nice 'combo' ya gots there bubba...lol

Eugene? See ya's both there...and we'll try spend a little more time, (and money), visiting each of the tables...

Mel

--thread drift--

A Strider Bayonet? Nah... ;)
 
Yeah Mick, Ill be in Eugene again, you going to let me buy you a steak there? Bring me a 1911 slide to do some Strider Stripes for ya so they match yer knives!

Yeah Melvin, I am a spoiled brat! But I paid more for that Beta C than I have a lot of guns! :p See you in Oregon!
 
Hey Wolfman,
Thank God that dude couldn't hold a group!
Glad you prevailed.(read survived)
RE: Penetration, someone earlier in this thread made a comment about 9 ootpenetrating 45. If you are comparing even the hottest 9mm ball round to a 230 gr. standard load in ballistic gelatin ... the 9 loses every time. Bullet weight wins penetration.
And who says a gunfight can't be at 600 to 1000 yds!?!
"The most dangerous thing on the battlefield is one well placed shot."
Duane Dwyer
 
Wolfmann601,
In the pic it's easy to see that the windshield didn't break. That surprised me a bit. Does that happen with perhaps different types of bullets? I mean holowpoint versus ballpoint? Just out of curiosity.
Take care,
Emanuel
 
Hey pal,
One well placed shot is not a gunfight.
It is a kill. :)
Love ya

edited for smile input.
 
Ah yes GUNFIGHT....

An excellent refence source for this topic is the Forensic Analysis of the April 11 th, 1986 FBI Firefight by Dr. French Anderson April 11 th 1996. (AKA PRATT and MATIX)

Several conclusive, powerful and salient facts and lessons can be gleaned from this comprehensive and excellent body of work.

1) Ratio in actual gunfight was 8 FBI Agents to 2 Tangos (or 4 to 1).
Of the 8 2 were SWAT and carried SWAT type of weapons at THAT time.
They were actually 14 Agents involved in the surveilllance but only 8 in GUNFIGHT.

2) 2 tangos Killed
2 Agents Killed 3 seriously injured and 2 injured w/ 1 uninjuried.

3) Verified Shots by Tangos: 49
Verified shots by Agents: 70

4) Agents Weapons Calibers .38+P 30 rounds
9MM 43 Rounds
12 Gauge "00" 5 Rounds

Tangos weapon Calibers .223 42 Rounds
12 Gauge 1 Round #6 Shot
.357 6 Rounds

Cause of Death:
Matix Multiple Gunshot Wounds 6 rounds
Pratt Multiple Gunshot Wounds 12 Rounds
(Pellet hits proved ineffective)

What can be gleaned in summation from this, N. Holloywood especially and others as well as my own personal experiences demonstrated countless times are:

1) Superior firepower gives a Tactical Advantage.

2) Handgun Rounds do not penetrate Vehicles i.e. .38, 9 MM, .357, 10MM and .45 Cal. .223 does not penetrate vehicles well either. .308 does. Additionally, .308 does penetrate Stucco, Drywall, parts of Vehicles w/o difficulty, Wood structures of composition construction.

3) Minset is everything

4) Shot placement matters greatly

5) Train w/ the weapon system so that when you meet your "BOOGEY MAN"
your Combat Triad is there. Marksmanship, Mindset, Weapon Manipulatuion skills. By that everything else being equal, the one w/ the Superior Firepower will prevail. assuming everything else is on a equal index.

6) The FBI felt as did many LE agencies that the 9MM was not as effective as heavier bullets. i.e .40 Cal, .45 ACP hence the change in policy. Having said that, the 10 MM proved to large and uncontrollable for some smaller males and most females. Case and point, It's not wise to get a caliber or weapon system that one cannot accurately employ w/ effectiveness. Train w/ a system that you can hit w/ efficacy. I have ZERO problems hitting "A" zone hits at realistic distances and engagements w/ the .308 not to mention the bonus of extended ranges.

7) .45 leaves a Bigger hole than 9MM

8) .223 is more vulnerable to deflection foliage/drywall et al than .308.

9) AR 10, SR-25, FN/FAL & H&K ALL are reliable excellent Weapon Systems when coupled w/ training and good Opitcs i.e. ACOG 4X, Reflex, Comp M, Elcan, Leupold etc et al.

10) The single biggest problem w/ .308 being used in LE
is overpenetration, Background issues, liability etc.
That should speak volumes regarding this rounds capability.
Ah, but this question was about a GUNFIGHT not liability...


Given the perameters of the question, I assume in an environment has Vehicles, Structures, Foliage etc et al. I also was'nt concerned w/ weight, duration, Ammo Count, & extraneous factors, i.e. time of day, tired, moody, fight w/ wife that day.

Just some thoughts on a GUNFIGHT...

thanks
 
Great topic. Good info. Sparks, do you have any links that compare the 5.56 against the 9mm? Would be interesting to read the data.
When guys talk about Somalia, you have to remember the baggy clothing there. You don't see it in the movie, but these guys are wearing dresses. Looked at my pics the other day and some video the MEU SOC gave us, lots of dresses, or whatever they call 'em, sarongs? Plus, there limbs are smaller than our forearms, and their torso is half our width. Hard to hit.
I'm sure most of you have read the material on the short ARs with SS109 sucking as they lose velocity at range.
Wolfmann601, ouch. You can take a licking and keep on ticking. Makes an argument for taking as much as you can hump.
Thanks, James
 
If I'm not too late to jump in:
9mm might be better if hi-caps or small size are important and .45 is generally better if not (for reasons already mentioned). The current wave is smaller guns like mini-.45's and so on, but small .45's may not support the caliber as well as a larger gun. If you must have a small gun then you might lean towards a 9mm. Your firearm should be pleasant to shoot (if you have a choice) so that you'll shoot it more thereby becoming more familiar with it.
So, the focus might be on the weapon itself and then to properly match the caliber.
For rifles: A battle rifle like the M-16 might support the 5.56 better although some winners like the M1A/M-14 and FN/FAL are in 7.62 (they're heavier). Bolt actions are generally maximized by a 7.62.
As far as the attached picture goes - the bolt action is in 7.62/.308 whilest the Bushmaster is in 5.56/.223. The Marlin lever action is in .357 Mag. The Bushmaster is soon to be a goner from AnklePocket HQ in favor of the Marlin. Also, the Marlin is what I'll reach for if the Jersey Shore's invaded. Nothing says "Welcome to America" better than a good lever action.
 
Why would you give up the firepower of a magazine fed, semi automatic weapon for a tube fed lever action? I love the FR-8 I was shooting this afternoon, but I would not trade it for the SAR 2 I was shooting later if the sh*t hit the fan. Five rounds vs. thirty in that case. I'll take firepower. Not only what it does when it hits, but supression fire is nice too.
 
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