No Oil or Water?

M

MtnHawk1

Joined
May 22, 2019
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I understand the necessity of removing swarf (metal and abrasive particles) from silicon carbide stones but could that just be removed with a stiff brush?

I enjoy sharpening but like to keep things as simple as possible and don't want to spend anymore time than I have to at it. Water, and especially oil, are messy and time-consuming for me and I don't want to pack sharpening oil when I go into the wilderness. I know the usual instructions are to use oil or water, but some do use "oilstones" dry, including authors such as John Juranitch.

I'm interested in hearing from people who have direct experience using SiC stones dry, not theory, guesses, or "do it because it's always been done that way". I am not saying lubricants are unnecessary and don't want to get into disagreements about what is the best sharpening lubricant or any other subject that could derail this thread.

I would simply like feedback on the positives and/or negatives about using SiC stones dry, from those that do it or have tried it.

Thank you!
 
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The main issue is that dry use causes more friction and less cutting, which increases the wear rate of the abrasive, and can cause glazing depending on the stone's formulation. If using a vitrified stone dry I suggest that it be one with a weak bond strength so that it will avoid glazing and clogging by readily shedding grit in use. Some resin bonded stones work best when used dry, but while some stones like diamond plates and sintered ceramics may be readily used dry with success, they still ultimately benefit from lubrication. It reduces wear on the abrasives and makes more of your effort go into cutting steel rather than generating heat through friction.
 
MtnHawk, the main item I have noticed when using a SiC stone dry is swarf build up, happens fast. Thus, reducing cutting action. Thus, even soapy water would be better than using it dry. For even a little touch up I would use water. DM
 
A really soft stone like the Task Tools scythe stone works dry because the constant grit shedding prevents loading. I try to avoid dry grinding however to avoid breathing dust.
 
For a while, I also tried to avoid the 'messiness' of using oil on stones like these. Used them dry for a while, then started trying them with water. As mentioned earlier, using the stone dry will clog it very fast, which will slow cutting action and also creates more issues like burring (because of the reduced cutting action). Using them with water, or dish soap & water, helps a little bit. But I noticed with that as well, the swarf wasn't being 'floated' or suspended very well, so the swarf would settle back into the stone pretty quickly. I noticed I could actually see the clogged areas in the stone, after cleaning & drying it. Scrubbing with a brush won't get it all, because it settles too deeply. I used Bar Keeper's Friend powder & water, to clean the swarf from the clogged stone, as the BKF will actually dissolve embedded swarf. That works, but I wouldn't want to have to do that very often, to maintain these stones.

I then started using oil (mineral oil) on the stones. It essentially cured the problem with clogging, as it does a much better job suspending the swarf so it can be wiped away. When the stone dries and some of the swarf settles, it can be suspended again by adding a little oil and rubbing the stone with a fingertip, after which that swarf can again be wiped away (a microfiber towel works real well for this).

So, bottom line:
Used dry --> clogged surface --> reduced cutting action.
Used with water --> somewhat better than dry, but still clogs eventually.
Used with oil --> swarf is suspended more completely and can be wiped off --> stone will continue to cut aggressively, as long as it's oiled.

I suspect there is also something beneficial regarding glazing & wear, as FortyTwoBlades mentioned earlier, when using oil. I've noticed my stones all keep cutting essentially like new, if I consistently use them with oil. I even use my diamond hones this way, and they show no obvious wear at all. As 'messy' as it seems, to use oil with these stones, it's actually the easiest way to keep them working well with a minimum of cleaning hassles.
 
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Thanks to everyone for your knowledgeable and thorough replies. :thumbsup: Much appreciated!

I figured that lubrication of SiC would be advised, since that's the most common instruction, but wanted to know for sure as I like to minimize sharpening mess and time as much as I can, without compromising quality. It was helpful to read about other benefits of lubrication besides swarf removal. This will make it easier to accept having to use a lubricant.

It would be nice if more sharpening stones had weak bond strength, as FortyTwoBlades and Mr. Wizard pointed out, so that lubricants could be avoided. I wonder if the Razor Edge Systems coarse hone, which they recommend using dry, has weaker-than-normal binding agents?

Obsessed with Edges, you make a compelling case for using oil on SiC stones, which I was hoping no one would. :) (Thanks!)

Is it ok to use oil and water interchangeably on SiC stones or should only one or the other be used? Norton Crystolon SiC stones are pre-loaded with oil and I've wondered what happens when they're used with water, or soapy water.
 
Contrary to popular belief, you can still use water on a stone that's been loaded with oil. It won't soak in, under most circumstances, but it can still be applied to the surface and it'll work. You can boil the oil out of pre-loaded stones, or you can just buy a stone that's not pre-loaded if you'd rather use water.
 
Exactly as Obsessed with Edges says.
For me it's not so much about lubricity, but to keep the stone from clogging. I wipe it off every once in a while and apply another thin line of oil while sharpening to keep it continuously cutting like new. When I get through, just wipe it off and put away till next sharpening.
I spend a lot less time overall doing this with a Norton jb8 than using it dry, having it clog up, and cleaning it so I can continue to sharpen or put away.
 
I've used the Razor Edge stones for years and never had them clog.I love them, though I also use the India stone with oil and plan to pick up a Crystolon in the future.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Contrary to popular belief, you can still use water on a stone that's been loaded with oil.
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Thanks! :thumbsup:

That's good news, as sometimes I just want to touch up knife edges without getting into the additional messiness of oil.

jpm2 said:
Exactly as Obsessed with Edges says.
For me it's not so much about lubricity, but to keep the stone from clogging.

I spend a lot less time overall doing this with a Norton jb8 than using it dry, having it clog up, and cleaning it so I can continue to sharpen or put away.
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Great point! I hadn't thought about this, and missed it at first when Obsessed with Edges mentioned it, but you are both absolutely correct and it is a major consideration. Thank you both for bringing it to my attention. :)

Robert Ptacek said:
I've used the Razor Edge stones for years and never had them clog.
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Thanks for your confirmation! :thumbsup: I haven't used mine for nearly that long, but so far, so good.

If you get a Norton Crystolon coarse I'd like to know what you think of it, compared to the Razor Edge.

That said, I may semi-retire my ~120 grit SiC and diamond stones in favor of the 60 grit Baryonyx Manticore. When I start on a 120 I often wonder why after 20-30 mins., because the Manticore is so much faster.
 
MtnHawk1 said:
That said, I may semi-retire my ~120 grit SiC and diamond stones in favor of the 60 grit Baryonyx Manticore. When I start on a 120 I often wonder why after 20-30 mins., because the Manticore is so much faster.
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Thanks for reminding me of the manticore, been meaning to get that and the sic honing plate. I also want that damn hand cranked grinding wheel too for some reason. :)
 
Robert Ptacek said: ↑
I've used the Razor Edge stones for years and never had them clog.
Thanks for your confirmation! :thumbsup: I haven't used mine for nearly that long, but so far, so good.

If you get a Norton Crystolon coarse I'd like to know what you think of it, compared to the Razor Edge.

Not sure when I'll get the Crystolon.So many wants and not enough money.I don't know for sure but I think the Razor Edge stones may be silicon carbide but have never verified.They do cut fast.In fact, I picked up another fine the surface was so smooth it felt like glass. I don't remember my first one being that smooth. I would actually dull knives to check it's abilities and reground a kniufe on the coarse to see if it could remove the coarse grind marks and put the final edge on.Absolutely no problems.I couldn't believe such a glassy stone could cut like that.I don't know if this how they finish recent production or I got a one off.That is what makes me believe that they may be SiC.
 
Robert Ptacek said:
Robert Ptacek said: ↑
I've used the Razor Edge stones for years and never had them clog.
Thanks for your confirmation! :thumbsup: I haven't used mine for nearly that long, but so far, so good.

If you get a Norton Crystolon coarse I'd like to know what you think of it, compared to the Razor Edge.

Not sure when I'll get the Crystolon.So many wants and not enough money.I don't know for sure but I think the Razor Edge stones may be silicon carbide but have never verified.They do cut fast.In fact, I picked up another fine the surface was so smooth it felt like glass. I don't remember my first one being that smooth. I would actually dull knives to check it's abilities and reground a kniufe on the coarse to see if it could remove the coarse grind marks and put the final edge on.Absolutely no problems.I couldn't believe such a glassy stone could cut like that.I don't know if this how they finish recent production or I got a one off.That is what makes me believe that they may be SiC.
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If it's silicon carbide it'd be either black or a green-grey color. Any other color and it's a different abrasive, and most likely to be aluminum oxide if it's white, blue-grey, brown, orange, or pink.
 
Gritomatic said:
Water user --> choose stone, purchase stone, use stone, happiness
Oil user --> choose stone, purchase stone, use stone, happiness
Dry user --> purchase random stone on Amazon, use stone, clog stone, return stone, get full refund, repeat
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Konstantin, you gave me a big smile and a laugh.

It reminds me of a case many years ago where my partner and I went to the home of some criminal in Brooklyn, NY who among other things was a resident alien and in bankruptcy.

When I went into the home I had never seen such amazing audio and video equipment, the likes of which I, a lowly federal agent, couldn't afford.

I asked him how he managed to afford such luxuries and he explained it to me in simple terms even I could understand. "You buy the items on credit, don't pay and eventually declare bankruptcy. It's the American way." My partner very astutely stepped between us to prevent me from decking him at that point.

Thanks for the laugh. :cool:
 
Robert Ptacek, no problem about the Crystolon stone. I actually have both, just wondered what your experience would be.

I'm glad the fine stone worked so well for you! I'm impressed with Razor Edge Systems quality and innovation and, after much trial and error with different sharpening techniques and stones, The Razor Edge Book of Sharpening helped me immensely to finally understand the basics of sharpening and get sharp edges.

I'd describe the RES coarse stone as medium gray and the fine as light gray. I didn't see a blue or green tinge to either, as FortyTwoBlades mentioned, so not sure of the composition. I don't have much experience with the fine stones, as after I bought them I learned about coarse, low grit, toothy edges, which work best for me, but my guess is that the coarse is SiC.

Gritomatic, good one! :)

Again, I appreciate all the great info and advice from everyone! :thumbsup: I've often wondered about the real-world differences between oil and water lubricants. I'll definitely use lubrication with my SiC stones from now on.
 
MtnHawk1 said:
I wonder if the Razor Edge Systems coarse hone, which they recommend using dry, has weaker-than-normal binding agents?
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Robert Ptacek said:
I've used the Razor Edge stones for years and never had them clog.
Click to expand...

I hadn't heard of these before. I suspect that if grit shedding were the mechanism they would get complaints about wear and dishing, and that Robert would not love them as I find such grit shedding unpleasant. There are lubricants and other impregnations that are sometimes added to grinding wheels and stones; perhaps R.E.S. have found one that is particularly effective for this application?
 
Mr.Wizard said:
I hadn't heard of these before. I suspect that if grit shedding were the mechanism they would get complaints about wear and dishing, and that Robert would not love them as I find such grit shedding unpleasant. There are lubricants and other impregnations that are sometimes added to grinding wheels and stones; perhaps R.E.S. have found one that is particularly effective for this application?
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I can send you the stone if you want to test. R.E.S. does not disclose the material and the grit so I'm not interested in cutting it to Edge Pro.
 
Gritomatic Gritomatic Thank you but I think I should decline as I still haven't properly tested the Idahone stones, and I have no special knowedge or equipment to analyze this anyway. (I am too easily distracted by things like Scotch-Brite grits, or delayed by things such as my granite lapping tile being out-of-flat and the local home supply having discontinued that type.)
 
Let me be clear when it comes to oilstones; I do use mineral oil to lubricate.The Razor Edge says specifically NOT to use oil or water.They do wear but I find any shedding of grit is insignificant.I simply brush stones of at end of use.The fine stone is hard but not as hard as Norton India.
 
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