One last heat treat oven question

[Vincent Price]

Ok, I'm still struggling with whether or not to pull the purchase on a heat treat oven. I think with my budget I've decided on a model which I'll not disclose because I don't want input necessarily on the merits of a particular model over another as to whether or not I need one.

Up to now ive heat treated out of my forge. I've only worked with high carbon steels.

SALES CONTENT REMOVED - you have yo have a Knifemaker membership to discuss sales.

1. I know an oven will allow me to work with tighter tolerances, more steels. Do I need to be able to work with anything beyond 1075, 1084, 1095 for my knives to appeal to a larger audience? (Yes I know quality and technique have to improve with experience im just talking steel selection. I do know there are some who won't buy a knife unless its 1095 or Stainless etc.

2. Are there others here who forge and also use a heat treat oven?

3. What else am I overlooking or not thinking of?

This is a large purchase for me. I've got a decent grinder now although I'd like a few more accessories but I certainly don't want to spend the money just because its something that a knifemakers "supposed to have."

 

[weo]

2. Are there others here who forge and also use a heat treat oven?

yes, and I use pretty much only 1080 and 15N20.
I like the confidence knowing that my blade is 1485F minus however much it takes for me to move the blade the 2 feet from the oven to the quench oil instead of guessing. I also like that the heating for quenching doesn't involve any flame, minimizing the risk of a hot spot due to the forge heat.

 

[Scaniaman]

Anyone serious about their heat treating needs an electronically controlled kiln.

As for your first question I'd say no, not necessarily. It's more about making a name for your self. There are well known makers using "only" "simple" steel like 80crv2 and some not even disclosing what steel is in their knives. It's a lot about marketing and hype.

 

[JTknives]

I dont see the advantage in withholding the ovens manufacture and model. You ask for advise and say this is a big purchase for you but someone here could save you from an expensive mistake. Not all ovens are created equally and some are not worth there weight in fire brick. We are only here to help you, we don’t care if your not running the latest and greatest oven.

as to your other question, I can not think of any oven worth buying that can not do carbon and stainless steels. Your shooting your self in the foot if you just limit your self to carbon steel. That’s like starting a mechanic shop and telling people you only work on cars but not trucks. Customers buy customer knives because thy want blades how thy want them. Yes it’s not always about the steel but we heat treat WAY MORE stainless then we do carbon steel for customers. It’s the think their customers want. So you need to be set up to offer your customers what thy want.

 

[Vincent Price]

I dont see the advantage in withholding the ovens manufacture and model. You ask for advise and say this is a big purchase for you but someone here could save you from an expensive mistake. Not all ovens are created equally and some are not worth there weight in fire brick. We are only here to help you, we don’t care if your not running the latest and greatest oven.

as to your other question, I can not think of any oven worth buying that can not do carbon and stainless steels. Your shooting your self in the foot if you just limit your self to carbon steel. That’s like starting a mechanic shop and telling people you only work on cars but not trucks. Customers buy customer knives because thy want blades how thy want them. Yes it’s not always about the steel but we heat treat WAY MORE stainless then we do carbon steel for customers. It’s the think their customers want. So you need to be set up to offer your customers what thy want.

I appreciate that actually. I should have thought better of not mentioning the model but then again I got in hot water with another issue also. The model I decided on was the Evenheat lb27. I found a coupon with Soul Ceramics and got it for about $1500 with the solid state relays. With all the comments here I have to agree that if I want to offer top quality, and I do, then I need to do absolutely everything I can to reproduce what the steel needs.

 

[HSC ///]

I heat treat in a forge by eye (except for certain steels that require some soak time)
I used my furnace recently for my longest blade 11.5"...because the even heating of a long blade is difficult in a forge.

 

[JTknives]

Looks like a decent oven and it should do well for what you need.

 

[JTknives]

I heat treat in a forge by eye (except for certain steels that require some soak time)
I used my furnace recently for my longest blade 11.5"...because the even heating of a long blade is difficult in a forge.

I’m sorry but I can not get behind using a forge and eye for heat treating. Yes back in the day that’s how I did it to and I thought I was getting good results. But there is zero assurance in consistency and accuracy of the heat treat. Your eyes adjust quite rapidly and this can throw off your results by hundreds of degrees. I’m not saying that you can’t get good results with practice. What I’m saying is you can’t get the best results with a forge if all your using is your eye. I have seen what being off by 25-50° does to the results and I would like to see anyone that can hold a temp =< that range of error using their eyes.

 

[HSC ///]

I’m sorry but I can not get behind using a forge and eye for heat treating. Yes back in the day that’s how I did it to and I thought I was getting good results. But there is zero assurance in consistency and accuracy of the heat treat. Your eyes adjust quite rapidly and this can throw off your results by hundreds of degrees. I’m not saying that you can’t get good results with practice. What I’m saying is you can’t get the best results with a forge if all your using is your eye. I have seen what being off by 25-50° does to the results and I would like to see anyone that can hold a temp =< that range of error using their eyes.

ok then fine, don't do it
Jarrod, this isn't a personal attack nor am I trying to be belligerent or combative, but you gave your opinion, so I'm giving mine.
what empirical evidence do you have to back what you are claiming?
Just because you can't do it or don't believe it, doesn't mean it can't be done, and it is done, and thousands of Japanese blades are made this way. Japanese steels are formulated to allow "insufficient" soak times or varying temperatures.

I didn't learn to do this off youtube or reading a forum. I was taught by someone who has made 25,000 blades this way.
People said you can't HT 1095 in a forge and hold the soak time accurately....and then I watched Tai Goo at his shop do it in front of me ( hold 1500 for 5 mins)

I know my limitations, as evidenced by me stating that I chose to use my furnace for the 11.5" blade, I knew heating it evenly was going to be questionable.

I don't make collector knives, I makes user knives, used by chefs, professionals and enthusiasts who constantly use and sharpen their own knives. I would know pretty quickly if my process was less than the best results.

we are going to disagree on this, I know that...it's not my position here to convince you of anything. I don't really care...
but I see this too often here - "Anyone serious about their heat treating needs an electronically controlled kiln." To me that's the same as saying - I sharpen the knife edge on my grinder with a worn belt....

now if you will excuse me, I have to go HT some Z wear and AEB-L in my furnace

Harbeer

 

[JTknives]

I was not trying to attack you or your ways of doing heat treating. I was just stating my opinion in how unreliable eyes can be. I’m feel this way because thy are an uncontrollable variable that can be easily influenced by outside sources. You can heat treat how you want and how you feel is best for you and your customers I am not trying to change that. I just know how my eyes are and even after looking at my ovens window thousands a thousands of times I don’t think I could hit that color consistently without help from a pid. As it looks different to me depending on what I had been doing right before. There are times I will look in on it and swear it’s not hot enough and then check the pid and it’s smack dab perfect. We will agree to disagree and I acknowledge there is more then one way to skin a cat.