OT: Long philosophical spirituality thread.

Mary was a virgin because Christ could not be a sinless man if he was born of a human father.If he had not been sinless, he could not have offered himself as a sacrifice in the place of others. The doctrine of the virgin birth is therefore a very important truth.

I. as a Christian, am certainly not an advocate of just sitting around. I believe in helping people too, and not necessarily saying something at every moment. I hope you all notice that I have never initiated a discussion of this type on my own, but only in response to what I percieved as appropriate opportunities to contribute my views.The Bible says that we should be ready to give an answer to those who ask us of the hope we have in us. The Bible clearly says that if our faith does not lead to action, it is a false faith.

However, the Bible clearly says that good works alone will not save us. If good works alone could save us, there would have been no need for the death of Christ.

As far as I can discern, there are two "systems" of belief with respect to being right with"god". The most common one, which all who have written in this thread so far, other than myself, seem to hold, is that our efforts to do good works will ultimately save us. Some systems will add some sort of divine help of some kind. The other, which I believe to be true, as well as unique, is that salvation is entirely from God alone. Man in completely helpless in his sin. God provides the sacrifice to atone for the sins of man, he provides the righteousness earned by Christ tor men that they may be fit for heaven, and he provides the faith in order for men to savingly take hold of the promise of salvation in Christ. True good works, inevitably, will follow.

Just to address briefly one of Phil's concerns as stated above, I offer the following.

"For it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Philippians 2:13

This verse shows that we do have a will, and we do act freely and responsibly, but that, in his own people particularly, God causes us so to will and do.

A Contradiction? If we limit ourselves to what we can comprehend. How can God cause me to do something, and yet it be truly done by my own free will? I cannot explain it, because God's abilities are ultimately beyond our comprehension. Any god we could fully understand wouldn't be worth much, would he? :D

I realize that the implications and topics for discussion are arising faster than they can be fully discussed. I hope the discussion will continue.

Also, I want to say that I have never been offended in the least by what has been said here. How could I be? I am just a servant, sort of a very low level herald, as it were. :)

Phil, I would encourage you, and those who have asserted various things in this thread, to consider the authority and evidence for all the concepts offered. I would hope that you would apply the same scrutiny and inquisitive spirit to all things, as you have done to the faith of your parents.

I have written this post primarily to try and set forth some distinctions to help clarify the issues. To discuss the grievous shortcomings of professing Christians is very legitimate, but those failings in no way reflect on the validity of the belief system. That, as all systems of thought, should be dealt with on its own merits, as to whether it conforms to that which is. In other words, whether it is true or not.

Thanks for listening!

Tom
 
Greetings again,

Just one more quick note today.

I have briefly perused the link to the Bible contradictions. I will continue to study it. So far, the "contradictions" do not seem very difficult to deal with.

Also, in case you are wondering, I am not a trained theologian, and I don't play one on TV! ;)

Tom
 
I'm impressed with the sympathy and understanding by everyone in this thread. However, I'm a little uncomfortable about folks speaking specifically about one set of religious beliefs over another, or the quoting of specific textual material.

It is one thing to discuss relationships and ways to deal with the complexity of human interaction, quite another to get involved in the singular aspects of one faith's beliefs, and the support or lack thereof within various religious writings.

As the well-being of the Cantina, and those friends I have in it, are my only concerns, might I suggest that specifics about corroboration/contradiction be dealt with in private messages or email?

I don't mean to be out of line, but the ice gets thin in religious and political discussions.

With every best intention,


Kis
 
Kismet said:
I don't mean to be out of line, but the ice gets thin in religious and political discussions.
Click to expand...
How about a thread on the pro's and con's of abortion?

That ought to get the forumites polarized for sure.
 
Id have to agree with that.
Also, I never use internet links when I talk about the bible nor any other religious type subject. I use actual books from an actual library.
(I own my own bibles, so they come from the bookshelf)

Lots of people ASSUME that I get my info from the internet, as they may have done, but that is not true nor is it responsible. Its also academically unacceptable and the data garnered is worthless.

IF anyone is interested in the actual teachings of Jesus, devoid of myth, let me recommend

Jesus : a revolutionary biography by John dominic Crosson.

And to see the old testament in a clearer light:

Return to Sodom and Gomorrah by Charles Pellegrino

And like I said, dont take my word or any other internet source as valid when it comes to anything important like this!
Go to the library or bookstore or local university!
 
Tom, I see Grace as a given. So you have received Salvation. Now what? The problem I have to respond to is that of after Salvation, after Grace, what do I do next?

The answer I see is that I have to respond in like kind as much as I am able. God has danced with me, and I am to live so as to teach the dance to others by my example. This is where the Protestant denominations have dropped the ball in my opinion. Probably the Catholic and Orthodox churches as well. They have not carried forward the traditional learning process of discipleship or discipling. Discipline comes from the same root word.

Richard Foster has written a book called Celebration of Discipline. It goes back to the desert fathers, and the times when the monasteries regained the techniques of discipline. ( Just my opinion, but I highly suspect that the squabble between Catholic and Protestant was God's plan to keep the high mucky-mucks on both sides too busy to interfere with the monasteries. )

In the same way, the Buddhists have continued the function of the Guru or Teacher: to guide those new in faith in becoming disciplined. I've mentored fresh caught new pastors as a church president. And at a subsequent time ran up against a face of the mountain I couldn't climb or get around.

Thomas Merton, a Catholic monk and writer on discipline and contemplation, was about to enter a Buddhist monastery for a year when he fell in the bathroom and died. He was not abandoning his faith, but passionately pursuing it through willingness to learn other contemplative and discipling techniques through the Buddhist paths.

I don't put myself anywhere near Merton. But ( like Hillary ) if I can't climb Everest on one face, I'm not going to turn down a Sherpa guide's help.

I'll concede you are very sincere in your beliefs. So am I. Let's agree to disagree in all good faith and conscience.
 
I see others have posted while I was composing the above. Maybe it is time to let this thread go and die in peace.

I won't close this thread, but I will hope anyone who has something to say can keep it positive.

Thanks.
 
"For the first time in my life I have clarity about who I am and what I want to be. There is Joy in my soul and I love me, and others around me."

Philthygeezer.......the quote above, from you, should tell you all you need to know. If this is a true statement.....how could you be on the wrong path? Don't be swayed by folks who want to talk about the literal validity of the bible, making it more believable for people with a good helping of intellectual dexterity, or you will end up right back where your parents are (isn't that what they believe?).
 
I too, am surprised by the civility and reasonableness of this discussion, considering it is one of the, normally, taboo subjects. But, like one other on the forum, I'm also uncomfortable with the well disguised, but only too recognizable proselytizing posts by Tom. As reasonable as he sounds, the evangelical tone is only too familiar. When Tom says:

"As far as I can discern, there are two "systems" of belief with respect to being right with"god". The most common one, which all who have written in this thread so far, other than myself, seem to hold, is that our efforts to do good works will ultimately save us. Some systems will add some sort of divine help of some kind. The other, which I believe to be true, as well as unique, is that salvation is entirely from God alone. Man in completely helpless in his sin. God provides the sacrifice to atone for the sins of man, he s the righteousness earned by Christ tor men that they may be fit for heaven, and he provides the faith in order for men to savingly take hold of the promise of salvation in Christ. True good works, inevitably, will follow."

....Tom is reminding us of his literal belief in the bible. If you believe literally in the bible (I also was raised in a Pentecostal household, which included my grandfather, a Pentecostal minister, so I know whereof I speak) you will find that the above quote is basically telling us that if you (me, us, them) do not accept Jesus Christ as our personal saviour we are doomed to Hell........for all eternity. Simple as that. In other words, being a good person...doing "good works" ain't worth diddly squat. Folks who accept the bible literally don't believe being a "good" person is enough. You MUST accept Christ as your personal saviour or your "salvation" is toast (read your bible).

That would include several billion non-christians, belonging to almost enumerable other faiths, who, upon the second coming, will be going straight to Hell. No amount of evangelical proselitizing can convince me that everyone in the cosmos is wrong.........except for the Christians. When Tom says, "The most common one, which all who have written in this thread so far, other than myself, seem to hold, is that our efforts to do good works will ultimately save us.", he is saying that good works aren't enough......you must accept Christ.....and, at least for me.......is as hard to believe as some far Easterners believe, that the world is supported by elephants, which are, in turn, supported by a giant tortoise. Taking religeous myths as fact won't lead to "salvation". By the way, did you know in some religion some elephants were banned form heaven? :D
 
All lies in jest,
'til a man hears what he wants to hear
and disregards the rest.
 
Ah, tis true. I'm pretty dumb but here's an unsolicited penny's worth.

Follow what is true.

Emotions just get in the way of rational decisions.

Test all things objectively without bias.

Some people have a lot of charisma and say lots of good stuff. Check out what they say and how they live their lives.

Follow no one blindly.

Don't drink anyone's kool aid

(theology will cost you an extra penny) :rolleyes:
 
Geezer,

I have turned away from my own upbringing of fear and control. I believe Jesus may have existed, but if so, many of the things he said have been taken out of context, while a few statements are undoubtedly true. I can readily interpret what Jesus is claimed to have said about the greatest commandment to mean an open, honest search and love for truth, and love for my fellow man, encompasses all (worthwhile) spiritual teaching.

One must surely believe, if one believed in a divine Creator, that he would have given you a working brain only if He wished you to use it.

One must also question whether, if dealing with an omnipotent deity, anything
could happen against his will?

Danny, I am no longer what you would call a Believer, but I certainly work to be loving, kind, and open to the truth around me. Sadly, I know few Believers who are Christians. (I do know a few. I call them "the Real Christians".)

Incidentally, I feel no need to be "saved" from anything.

Tom, it's nice to see that you are attempting to follow specific Biblical injunction to not preach to those who have no wish to hear. I wish more "Christians" would read enough of the Bible they claim to believe to follow this policy, as well. [I have to laugh every time anyone says any foolishness about our "Judeo-Christian Ethics". What? I don't believe in killing rebellious kids, I don't think women should be forced to leave the city when having their
menses, and I certainly don't believe in beating children (at ALL), and especially not until they are bruised. I don't know any who call themselves Christians who do believe all these things, so much for shared values.] I think if more people knew what they claimed to believe, we'd have to hear their preaching about it less.

Please don't even comment on "Law vs. Grace"; just making a point.

John
 
Well,

I don't know what else to say. To try and answer some of the points and questions raised would probably cause offense beyond any possible benefit.

I will agree to disagree, as Rusty said, except I do agree with his concern about the lack of post salvation discipleship!

Anyone who wants to discuss this further, please feel free to e-mail if you think what I have to say might be helpful to you.

Now, back to my irregularly scheduled khukuri postings! :)

Tom
 
Personnally, I like to dwell on the cosmic question of why some boobs are bigger than others. :D
 
Imagine the outrage if a handsome guy came on TV selling pills to help women get bigger breasts to make their relationships and lives in general more successful and happier.
But nobody complains about that big eyed blonde babe who sells the pills to enhance "that special part of the male body" which will supposedly produce the same result.

I'm not complaining, just observing. I might even buy her peckerpills - if she had bigger breasts.
 
Unfortunately, a lot of people think that so is laughter. Or fun, or joy.
 
Ben Arown-Awile said:
Imagine the outrage if a handsome guy came on TV selling pills to help women get bigger breasts to make their relationships and lives in general more successful and happier.
But nobody complains about that big eyed blonde babe who sells the pills to enhance "that special part of the male body" which will supposedly produce the same result.

I'm not complaining, just observing. I might even buy her peckerpills - if she had bigger breasts.
Click to expand...


:D man, you crack me up.
 
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