Out of box sharpness

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Gary W. Graley

Gary W. Graley

“Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Greetings folks, I know this subject comes up each year, but I figured to start a fresh one and see what the current offerings from knife makers/manufacturers are giving us lately. What got me thinking about this was a recent trade off the forums from @Monofletch, thanks again for that. and this Delica with K390 blade arrived exceptionally sharp and I've handled a lot of sharp knives...!

Untitled by GaryWGraley, on Flickr

Untitled by GaryWGraley, on Flickr

Stunningly sharp, as you might expect from Spyderco as @Sal Glesser and his crew are all about sharp things!

So what have you guys or gals seen lately that surprised you with either dullness or sharpness?

G2
 
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Spyderco and Cold Steel always come sharp.

I prefer Spyderco’s 18* edge angle, as it makes it very easy for me to put the 20° micro bevel on it with a Sharpmaker.

Benchmades are OK, but have a rather steep bevel angle, which makes them harder to resharpen. Same for Kershaw.

The all need to get onboard with robots for the factory edge grinding at 18*, IMHO.
 
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"sharp" is subjective until it is not. As I type this one-handed, I found the edge of Mt Spartan SHF to be thick and just "OK". Hit it with a diamond stone and a loaded strop. Sorta shaved my arm. Certainly less of a pop than others.

Flash forward to me needing to trim a stray sting off my shirt. My thumb slips a bit forward after a couple of Manhattans, "owwmuthafuddasombich". 3 bandaids later I see the benefit of a thick, sharp edge after a touch up sharpening.
 
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Pointiest knife might be another good thread too, your post reminded me the first knife that pierced my finger tip with no resistance was an old school Spyderco Police with a wicked point!
Now that was very very long ago!
G2
 
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Let's see, I have ordered a Mutiny from Toor Knives and it was so awfully dull, I could press it into my thumb with no fear of a cut, I contacted them directly which they responded with
"I've had a talk with the guys and they agreed a batch may have gotten out without being sharpened, we apologize, thanks! "

No offerings to make it right, just "yeah, that happened"

This is not a "FU toor knives" just my personal story of out the box dull to the max" I've ordered others from them and they came ok. Personally I require a working edge only, i have no need for a razor sharp edge
 
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ShaiHulud said:
Let's see, I have ordered a Mutiny from Toor Knives and it was so awfully dull, I could press it into my thumb with no fear of a cut, I contacted them directly which they responded with
"I've had a talk with the guys and they agreed a batch may have gotten out without being sharpened, we apologize, thanks! "

No offerings to make it right, just "yeah, that happened"

This is not a "FU toor knives" just my personal story of out the box dull to the max" I've ordered others from them and they came ok. Personally I require a working edge only, i have no need for a razor sharp edge
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I recently had the same experience with a Toor knife but worse. This tanto was so dull, it was insulting. I sent it back and waited 3 months!!! before getting it back. It was just as dull when it came back. I was like ok, maybe there is something wrong with the heat treatment. Sent it back again with a warranty claim and in 3 days I had it back again razor sharp. So, something is going on in that shop, not sure what. They do make nice knives though. Have a few more from them and they came really sharp.

It’s always interesting and thought provoking when you spend 10x!!! as much on one knife as another and the cheap one just blows it out of the water in the edge department

To wit:



38D6031F-AA87-43A2-A5F8-ED3578BA2377.jpeg
 
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Here is the opportunity to ask a question while keeping the relevance to the OP.
I do not have a BESS tester, and I check my new knives by cutting paper. Sometimes they cut paper better than the knives sharpened by myself, but underperform in doung food preparation. None of these knives are kitchen knives, and I compare knives with similar profiles. I am suspicious that with my freehand sharpening I convex the edges a little bit, and the knives maybe are not sharper, but cut better, and maybe I thin them a little more behind the edge. No detectable burrs on these new knives, and I go beynd "light touch" on the stones - I actually resharpen them. So am I right for thinking that sharp edge and "cood" cutting edge for the same knife are different things?
 
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rlewpolar said:
I recently had the same experience with a Toor knife but worse. This tanto was so dull, it was insulting. I sent it back and waited 3 months!!! before getting it back. It was just as dull when it came back. I was like ok, maybe there is something wrong with the heat treatment. Sent it back again with a warranty claim and in 3 days I had it back again razor sharp. So, something is going on in that shop, not sure what. They do make nice knives though. Have a few more from them and they came really sharp.

It’s always interesting and thought provoking when you spend 10x!!! as much on one knife as another and the cheap one just blows it out of the water in the edge department

To wit:



View attachment 2327742
Click to expand...
I ended up selling mine, some time later I read another dull story from a toor knife. It is enough for me to close the door on that company, I'm not really good at sharpening, but i try --- so I usually settle for a coarse workable edge and do my best to maintain it. inspecting to see if a knife is sharp or not should really be the first thing they check before sending it off
 
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Bought a CS 1917 Frontier Bowie; the thing came not only dull, but also not ground for about an inch in front of the choil (it’s a blued finish and you couldn’t even see the bevel’s metal underneath due to the complete lack of grind; said area was completely flat on the “apex” and I had to manually grind it and put an edge on it; being fairly soft steel (1080) it only took like 10 mins, but still, pretty disappointing qc. Maybe it was a factory 2nd that slipped through.
 
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Another Shepherd said:
I think I measured all of these knives in 2023, though perhaps a few were in late 2022. And some of the knives may have been on a dealer's shelf for a few years.

The column headed "Sharp" shows the average of several measurements with an Edge-On-Up PT50A device. Each measurement (AKA BESS score) is the force in grams required to cut a specially calibrated thread (AKA test medium). These measurements were taken right out of the box or off the shelf or, in a few cases, after making a few slices in a sheet of paper.

For plain-edge blades, measurements were taken at at least 5 spots along the edge, spaced out from tip to heel.

For serrated blades, measurements were taken at the bottoms of 3 to 5 of the wide gullets, depending on how many gullets the blade had.

For combo blades, there are separate measurements for the plain-edge and serrated portions of the blade, so some knives are listed twice.

Smaller values are better. My personal interpretation of the BESS scores is:
500 - In dire need of sharpening
400 - Poor
300 - Fair
200 - Good
150 - Excellent
100 - Dangerous

The column headed "Angle" shows angles in degrees for the two sides of the edge bevel along the straight part of the blade, or near the middle of the belly if there was not a long enough straight portion to measure. The measurements are probably accurate to about a degree. I measured some of the blades with two different Gritomatic laser goniometers, the cheaper one and the one with magnets. They agreed to within a degree, with the differences probably due to my inability to get the blade positioned exactly right.

An entry such as (14,33) means that the bevel is convex, ranging from 14 degrees towards the spine to 33 degrees near the apex.

An entry such as (18,40+) means that the angle near the apex is bigger than I can read off the goniometer. A very wide angle like this does not necessarily mean that the edge is dull according to the Edge-On-Up.

Some of these knives had been used at the time I took the angle measurements, but not heavily, and none of them had been sharpened. Light use does not show up on the goniometer.

I own(ed) most of the knives, but I measured some at local stores.

Code: 
Sharp Steel         Make             Model                                       Angle                
                                                                                                      
73    N690          Fox              Compso (Orange Neck Combo Serrated)                              
76    Cobalt        Boye             Boating and Rescue Sheepsfoot (Serrated)                         
97    Elmax         Kunwu            Pulsar (Red Gmascus)                        17:17                
104   CPM-S90V      Spyderco         Paramilitary 2 (Teal)                       19:15                
108   CPM-S30V      Spyderco         Kelly McCann Canis (Wharncliffe)            17:16                
108   Stainless     Morakniv         Companion @B (Serrated Orange)                                   
109   Magnacut      Bradford         Guardian 3 (Orange)                         18:16                
113   CPM-20CV      WE               Ziffius Flipper Chidori                     20:21                
118   LC200N        Spyderco         Pacific Salt 2 (Serrated) @C                                     
120   N690          Fox              Compso (Orange Neck Combo Smooth)                                
122   CPM-S90V      Spyderco         Para 3 LW (Teal) @E                         18:17                
125   CPM-154       Benchmade        Taggedout (Orange)                          17:17                
127   14C28N        QSP              Swordfish (Red/Black Wharncliffe)           18:19                
127   Magnacut      James Brand      Kline (Orange)                              (17,24):(19,29)      
127   CPM-CruWear   Spyderco         Para 3 (Purple) @B                          16:14                
128   14C28N        Civivi           Qubit (Blue)                                21:22                
132   CPM-S35VN     Cold Steel       Recon 1 (Orange Tanto) @B                   11:19                
134   LC200N        Spyderco         Pacific Salt 2 (Smooth)                     (14,19):(11,38)      
139   CPM-20CV      WE               Exciton Flipper                             23:20                
142   12C27         James Brand      Redstone (Coral Combo Smooth)               21:22                
147   N690          Kizer            Vanguard Swaggs Sway Back Flipper (Red W    24:14                
147   CPM-3V        Benchmade        Bailout (Tanto)                             21:21                
148   VG-10         Spyderco         Dragonfly (Steel Dragonfly Tattoo)          (11,24):(7:33)       
148   CPM-S35VN     Kizer            Yue Cormorant Flipper (Serape)              20:20                
152   CPM-CruWear   Spyderco         Yojimbo 2 (Purple)                          16:16                
157   CPM-S35VN     Civivi           Elementum II (Flipper Red/Black)            20:21
159   14C28N        Civivi           Trailblazer (Blue)                          21:21
160   VG-10         Spyderco         Stretch 2XL LW                              (13,17):(16,38)
161   CPM-D2        Benchmade        Claymore Auto                               (17,30):21
163   420           Victorinox       Skipper 0.8503.2MW-X1 (Blue Combo Smooth                         
164   14C28N        Civivi           Cogent (Jade Combo Smooth)                  20:24
164   AUS-10A       Demko            FreeReign (Blue)                            18:17
166   8Cr13MoV      CRKT             Folts S.P.I.T. Neck Knife Reverse Tanto     15:22                
166   CPM-3V        Benchmade        Bailout SHOT Show 2023 Exclusive (Tanto     22:20
168   CPM-S90V      Benchmade        Mini Freek                                  18:18
169   CPM-CruWear   Benchmade        Mini Adamas                                 20:15
171   14C28N        Vosteed          Raccoon (Orange)                            (19,32):(19,33)
172   Vanax         Indiana Knives   EDZ (Blue Wharncliffe)                      22:20
181   CPM-S90V      Benchmade        Mediator Auto                               18:21
182   CPM-S45VN     Spyderco         Pochi                                       21:19
187   9Cr18MoV      Sencut           Sachse (Brown)                              24:25
188   12C27         James Brand      Redstone (Coral Combo Serrated)                                  
191   CPM-S35VN     Kizer            Hyper (Red/Blue)                            24:23
193   LC200N        Spyderco         Salt 2 (Smooth Wharncliffe)                 (15,34):(16,40+)
193   LC200N        Spyderco         Caribbean Salt Sheepfoot Serrated @B                             
197   CPM-S35VN     White River      M1 Pro (Orange Neck)                        22:21
201   Magnacut      Protech          Malibu                                      25:25                
203   AUS-8         Kizlyar Supreme  Amigo Z (Blue Neck)                         20:20
206   Nitrox        TB Outdoor       CAC French Army Folding Knife (Orange Co    18:18
216   LC200N        Kizer            Azo Drop Bear (Gradient Snowflake Titani    22:21
227   5160          Buck             Compadre Froe Machete                       26:26                     
228   CPM-S35VN     Medford          Smooth Criminal Plunge Lock Flipper (Blu                         
237   Nitro-V       Vosteed          Valkyrie (Gray Sheepsfoot)                  24:20
249   14C28N        Civivi           Cogent (Burgundy Combo Serrated)                                 
255   14C28N        Civivi           Cogent (Jade Combo Serrated)                                     
266   ?             Milwaukee        48-22-1502 Utility                                               
271   420HC         Gerber           Strongarm (Combo Smooth)                    25:20
306   Nitrox        TB Outdoor       CAC French Army Folding Knife (Orange Co                         
440   VG-10         Spyderco         Endura Thin Red Line                        (19,35):(27,45)
449   ?             Milwaukee        48-22-1500 Utility                                               
573   ?             Dollar Tree      Folding Knife (Serrated)
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A fabulous study. Thanks. My takeout is the brand doesn't seem to matter. High-end steel seems to confer an advantage and a more acute angle has a slight positive effect. Probably what matters the most is the guy who sharpened the knife on the day.
 
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dakotakidd said:
I was going to make my own thread but I'll post here.

New from blade hq. Spyderco Enuff clip point. I really like the looks and wanted to try one.

Edge is interesting to say the least. Sounds like a zipper when pulled over my sharpmaker. Should I just send it in to spyderco for a sharpening?
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I know you got it from B HQ but it looks spurious to me. Not just the edge finish either.
 
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The last 3 MagnaCut CRK I purchased came out of the box as sharp if not sharper than any other knives Ive ever bought with maybe the exception of the Bradford 3 in cruwear, That thing cut me before I even got it out of the box!
 
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vinprom said:
I do not have a BESS tester, and I check my new knives by cutting paper. Sometimes they cut paper better than the knives sharpened by myself, but underperform in doung food preparation. None of these knives are kitchen knives, and I compare knives with similar profiles. I am suspicious that with my freehand sharpening I convex the edges a little bit, and the knives maybe are not sharper, but cut better, and maybe I thin them a little more behind the edge. No detectable burrs on these new knives, and I go beynd "light touch" on the stones - I actually resharpen them. So am I right for thinking that sharp edge and "cood" cutting edge for the same knife are different things?
Click to expand...
Right, sharpness and cutting ability are related but not the same. This topic is quite complicated. Here is a very interesting article:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/08/06/sharpness-vs-cutting-ability/
 
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