Patina; it's not just for looks....

[Mink]

That is encouraging! Maybe I will go look again for the Ruana I left at a gutpile in 1972.

Oh , that one had to hurt.

 

[Professor]

Patina is a form of oxidation as is rust as is gun blue or browning. Steel is porous and unless it has a coating or rust inhibitor in the pores, it will rust. A hunting knife I had for forty years had a nice patina. I kept it cleaned and oiled. I did not scotchbrite or steel wool the blade. But washed and dried then oiled it after use. If I left it out in the rain or left blood on the knife for days, it would form spots of powdery rust which could be wiped off with a cloth. Pitting would take longer or the presence of something either acidic or caustic.

I get the impression that people today are needlessly afraid of carbon steel knives rusting and consider it a defect, thus the mass migration to chrome-like stainless bladed knives. Carbon steel knives, like old fashioned 1095 and it's kin, do take a bit of care, but not so much. I do use a stainless premium stockman in my work because of exposure to salt and chemicals, but for most normal use, even outdoor sporting like camping, hunting and fishing, I use carbon steel knives and have no problem with them rusting. I just learned growing up not to store my knives wet or dirty. And yes, a good thick overall patina will hold protective oil better than a freshly "buffed to mint" blade, at least in my experience. It is how a well seasoned cast iron skillet can have a surface almost as non-stick, non-rust as teflon.

You make a lot of great points here. My personal favorite steel from the standpoint of overall performance is D2, hardened to ~61RC, which on my carry knives I tend to put an acid-etched finish on (as pictured). My experience with it so far is that this finish, almost like a bead-blast to the touch, has resisted oxidation moreso that the original stonewashed finish. This surprises me, as I'd thought the more porous, the more oxidation-proned. To your point, however, perhaps the more porous surface is collecting/keeping more of the Teflon-based oil that I wipe on it every so often. And of course I keep in mind that D2 has a healthy dose of the oxidation-resisting elements by virtue of itself, which could play into my experience with it.

Whatever the case, your point about folks' irrational fear of carbon steels is well taken. Carbon steels and semi-stainless tool steels to me are somewhat reminiscent of the human condition -- strong yet susceptible to problems if not properly cared for.

Prof.

 

[jon_slider]

It's not for looks at all. Patina just is. It's only recently that people have started forcing patinas for appearance's sake.

Some people force patina because they believe it protects the blade from rust. In my opinion, the belief that patina will protect a blade from rust is 100's of years old, as are many other superstitions.

Barlow Charlie (waynorth) has the habit of using hot Vinegar on his new user blades. He shares the popular belief that patina protects the blade. He will be a septuagenarian soon.

The potato originates in South America, and was brought to Europe in the 1500's, after the Europeans invaded and pillaged the Americas. Potato using Europeans, and European Americans, believe that sticking a new blade in a potato overnight will protect it from red rust.

The preColumbus natives of the Americas did not have steel blades, so they could not have originated the European mythos around patina.

imo Oiling a blade with or without patina, or keeping it polished and dry, will keep red rust from forming. At one time, starting in the 1600's, the Spanish called knives Armas Blancas (white weapons). I think that is a reference to polished steel. I know some people who strop their carbon blades to a white shine, on a regular basis. I am one of them. I have not had any rusting problem with my polished carbon blades. I just don't let them stay wet.

Potato patina is forced, unless you eat the potato, then its just earned Potato, I mean earned patina

 

[jc57]

Knarfeng is older than Charlie and he doesn't buy into the "patina = rustproofing" thing either. Kind of like Granny Clampett's cure for the common cold - take her remedy, stay in bed, drink plenty of fluids, and in a week to 10 days you are cured. Force a patina, keep the knife clean and dry, oil occasionally, and it won't rust. 0+2+2 = 4.

 

[kamagong]

Some people force patina because they believe it protects the blade from rust. In my opinion, the belief that patina will protect a blade from rust is 100's of years old, as are many other superstitions.

I understand that. I was referring to those people who force a patina because of the way it looks.

- Christian

 

[jon_slider]

Force a patina, keep the knife clean and dry, oil occasionally, and it won't rust. 0+2+2 = 4.

Brilliant!

I was referring to those people who force a patina because of the way it looks.

Thanks, I did miss your point the first time around, but now I see it in the thread title too..

Earned, forced, or food based, Patina is just an excuse to play with, talk about, fondle, and photograph, knives. Thanks for the insights into my codependency..

 

[Codger_64]

Natural patina on my (recently stolen) Schrade Walden 165OT Woodsman, over 40 years old and literally hundreds of deer and years afield. Notice the water on the blade? No sanding or steel wool, no pitting. Just patina and water beading up on the surface.

 

[knarfeng]

I could not find a 10 foot pole. But I did find an 11 foot Yugoslav. So I am going to make a comment.

RUST! Horrible red rust all over the blade, he was sure the blade was ruined, but grabbed a maroon scotchbrite pad and went to work....Once the rust, and remaining patina had been scrubbed off, he was amazed to see that the blade had suffered NO damage, no pitting, the red rust was merely surface rust, the patina had protected the knife from two days of rain!

I would not expect two days of rain on a shiny steel blade to cause any more red rust than what you got on your blades.

 

[knarfeng]

Charlie is older.
I am grumpier.

 

[meako]

hi ho hi ho
rust is knifes worst foe
patina makes the rust work slow
hi ho hi ho hi ho hi ho

sorry-it was the reference to grumpiness. I will go on record and state that I believe Charlie and Frank are in no way anything like the seven dwarves (I'm making it worse aren't I?).
help me!

 

[db]

Well I still beleive a patina will not prevent red rust but it will slow it down from forming.

 

[Codger_64]

Well I still beleive a patina will not prevent red rust but it will slow it down from forming.

Think about cureing a cast iron skillet to make it non-stick and keep it from rusting when not in use. If the moisture beads on the accumulated carbon and oil layer, it does not touch the steel (iron) and cannot cause rusting.

 

[jon_slider]

who needs patina, when youve got deer grease all over your blade
for that matter, who needs patina, when youve got Sunshine

same shiny blade, different lighting, plus water.. it beads right up!

Here is a blade with patina.. water does not bead up as much... hmmmm

 

[Codger_64]

I'm afraid that if I spend too much time polishing my knife to make it shiney, first time I turn my back a crow or a coon will make off with it! No, to an extent you are right. I don't polish it, but I clean it between uses and after cleaning I lightly oil it again wiping most of the oil back off. The metal is porous and some of the oil builds up in those pores protecting the blade from rust. By the way, that 40 year old Tidioute is pretty enough to carry into church on Sunday morning. :thumbup:

 

[jon_slider]

after cleaning I lightly oil it again wiping most of the oil back off. The... oil... protecting the blade from rust. ...that...Tidioute is pretty enough to carry into church...

Thank you sir!
Next time someone tells me patina protects against rust, Im tellin'em its the OIL!

and fwiw, Sunshine cloth contains wax, which evidently has similar water beading properties to OIL!

the blade with patina has NOT been oiled in a long while. It sits on my cutting board waiting for french bread, tomatoes, Manchego, roasted garlic, and olives, after which it gets rinsed and wiped with a paper towel. (apparently neither the cheese, garlic, nor olives provide enough oil to make water bead up). I was honestly suprised the sheepfoot with patina did not get water beads.. I could oil it and try again if anyone wants me to...

next time someone tells me their patina protects against rust, Im challengin'em to post a picture of water on the blade , after wiping down with alcohol first... just to stack the deck..

 

[Codger_64]

Heh! We are persistant aren't we! Metal has open pores. The more we mirror polish the metal, the more we close the pores by flattening the surface. A patina adds surface area, fills pores and holds oil. That's my story and I am sticking to it! Again, think of the cast iron skillet's non-stick surface. And look again at my 40 year old knife with no pits, rust or polishing. And with careful honeing over the years, the blade is not noticibly reduced at all. Here is the same pattern new in the box for comparison.

 

[jon_slider]

And look again at my 40 year old knife with no pits, rust or polishing. And with careful honeing over the years, the blade is not noticibly reduced at all.

Here is the same pattern new in the box for comparison.

Wow! thanks for your generous sharing including great images
do your two examples both get the same oil treatment? are they both stored in the sheath?

I had just been reading an older post of yours.. so sorry about the theft..
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1150586-Current-manufacture-Schrade-knives/page2?

So I own around thirty of the 897UH premium stockman pattern. And around thirty of the 152OT/UH Sharpfinger pattern. And round thirty of the 165OT/UH Woodsman fixed blade pattern (until the recent breakin and Great Schrade Robbery). Half or more of each pattern's examples are new in complete packaging. All of these are in addition to hundreds of knives accumulated chasing pattern ancestors.

and your great post about your love for this pattern
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/corners/michael/165OT Woodsman.pdf

 

[Codger_64]

Wow! thanks for your generous sharing including great images
do your two examples both get the same oil treatment? are they both stored in the sheath?

I had just been reading an older post of yours.. so sorry about the theft..
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1150586-Current-manufacture-Schrade-knives/page2?


and your great post about your love for this pattern
http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/corners/michael/165OT Woodsman.pdf

Oh no! Never stored in their sheaths! The most original knives this age were purchased/given as gifts and, after the meal and cake, the new owner put the new knife in it's box still covered with it's white chipboard shipping sleeve in the top of his closet with years worth of father's day ties or in the drawer with his office gifts, ink pens and key chains. Only to be discovered by his children or grandchildern after he had passed on.

Most often they are still covered in a trace of thick oil, turned hazy and brownish. But stored seperately from the sheath. I carefully clean that old dried oil off and wipe the knife with food grade mineral oil. Even my users are stored outside the sheath. Not shown in the NIB photo above is a slim polybag usually provided for the sheath. And a chipboard sleeve to protect the blade.

Packaging changed over time, and this is the third, I think. The first had a vac formed plastic tray which kept the items seperate, the knife, sheath and stone. As you may know, leather is acidic and holds moisture, even high humidity.

I'll try to haul out my remaining 165OT today and take a family photo. The boxed example above is a recent webfind and I used their photo as an example because I don't have one of that good quality showing the full blade. It is raining and dreary today so not the best time to take glamor shots of knives.

ETA: This is the earliest production, serial #6710 from 1966, in it's hinged top box.

 

[SAK Guy]

Beautiful, Codger!!!!!!! :thumbup:

 

[Codger_64]

Beautiful, Codger!!!!!!! :thumbup:

Thanks SAK Guy. I bought my first one back when I was still in my early twenties and that original knife had been my go-to for many years. Interestingly, in about 1994 the shield fell out. I sent it back to Schrade, totally out of warranty, and asked them to reinstall the shield, not replace the knife. They did, heated a new one in for me and returned it with a new sheath no charge, just like Zippo does with a lighter.