Pellet Guns

Hi,

Last Saturday I had the opportunity to shoot with the Weihrauch-Theoben HW90 which uses the gasram and is probably called Beeman RX-1 in the US.

I was shooting at a 110 yard military shooting range and I myself use a semi auto Ljungman caliber 6.5x55 built in 1942.
A member took with him the HW90 in .177 caliberand was shooting at a nickel sized bull at 55 yards.

When I finished my veteran military rifle practice rounds I had a go at the air rifle.

I was able to consistently hit the nickel sized bull at 55 yards and the speed of the pellet was over 1100 feet /sec as there was a sonic crack each time.
The time for the pellet to arrive at 55 yards was also very short, pulling the trigger one immediately saw the small hole appear in the scope that was turned up to 18x magnification.

We then gave it a go at 110 yards and even at that distance on the shielded range we consistently shot groups of 3 that stayed under 2"
We had to compensate a lot for bullet drop but still the performance was incredible.

On the downside, this guy had charged the gasram with 28 strokes with the "extra" original pump and Weihrauch gives a maximum of 30 and cocking the gun was verry heavy.

I want one but only because in Holland one doesn't need a license for it but for a survival gun I would opt for a 22 rimfire ANY time, it's lighter (half the weight) and carries more power.
A nice Ruger 10/22 with folding buttstock and a easy on/off light 3-9x40 scope and some spare clips and a decent trigger job, would be a very nice gun indeed.

Best scouting wishes from Holland,

Bagheera

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[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 01-08-2001).]
 
The HW90 is one of the best air rifles that I have ever shot. It is supposed to be more accurate when tuned to shoot subsonic (just a little bit under the sound barrier), at least that's how my HW90 is tuned (something very easy to do with the help of the pump and a chronograph).

One should keep in mind that such a high-performance air rifle needs absolutely top quality scope mounts to shoot straight and hold its zero. Its recoil is minimal in magnitude, but very "sharp", and this can break the crosshairs of a cheap scope, and it can send the scope creeping backwards after each shot if you use "normal" firearm mounts.
 
While it's probably true that you should spend the money for a super high quality precision airgun for survival situations, a lot of the ones folks have been mentioning on this thread will run you several hundred bucks (and some more than that!). For a couple of hundred bucks, check out the Beeman R7 (single stroke spring-piston rifle). Doesn't pack quite as much velocity as some of the others, but should be adequate enough for smaller birds/varmits at up to moderate ranges. It's easy cocking, accurate, adequately powerful, and relatively light weight.

For about a hundred bucks, check out a Benjamin/Sheridan pump. You have to pump it about 10 times per shot for max velocity, but like the R7, it has good accuracy (not quite as good as the R7 though), is adequately powerful, and is relatively light weight.

I can tell you from experience that the R7 is smooth shooting and very accurate. My Benjamin, though a pain to pump 10 times, is accurate and powerful enough to kill large doves at 50 yards with "iron sights". I highly recommend either rifle if you're somewhat budget limited like me.



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Danny
aka "kuma575"
 
A couple thoughts to consider,
An airgun no matter how powerful or accurate is not an effective deterrent to "human rodents" while a .22 LR is quite capable of handling that problem.

Did you know that the only caliber firearm that takes more deer each year than the 30-30 Wincester is the .22 LR?
Why?
It's the favorite tool of poachers.
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If you are in a protracted survival situation, eventually you must eat something other than rodents. A steady diet of squirrel and rabbit is NOT good for you and it takes a LOT of squirrel hides to make a pair of pants.
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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
 
This is a tough one. You can get a quality .22 LR for less money than most quality air rifles. But it is cheaper to shoot the air rifle than the .22LR.
you also have to consider that a .22LR gives you lots more muzzle energy, range, and depending on the gun, a follow up shot should you have a chance for one after missing. Which will happen at least once in a while.
The pellet gun has its merits too though.
I would reccommend a break barrel model first off. Pneumatics are good but once you get into the high power range( over 800 fps) they usually have to be precharged, which won't work out to well in the woods unless you plan on carrying a scuba tank or hand pump with you. Go for open sights of some sorts. Scopes and other precision type sights are going to be hard to maintain.
You may wnat to consider a cheaper gun to start yourself off with. Daisy and Crosman both offer break barrel pellet guns that will hit 1000 fps in .177 for around $100. The daisy even has real wood. They also offer a .22 for a litle more money, I can't remember what the action on them is though.
I would go to www.daisy.com and www.crosman.com and see what they have. They can give you good price on a gun thats pretty good quality. You should also be able to look at sheridan and benjamin sheridan on the crosman link. They make higher quality guns than crosman or daisy but they're multi pump pneumatic.
Another brand in the high end that I haven't seen mentioned is webley. They make a few pistols- nemesis and I think one called a hurricane also, along wiht some very nice rifles.www.webley.co.uk/index.html

Another link you should look at is http://www.sites.onlinemac.com/gunn1/alk.htm

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I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer... but I've got the sharpest knife in the room.
 
Kuma;

You could very likely be damaging your Benjamin, assuming it's an original, and not been re-worked by Mac-1. ALL Benjamin/Sheridan pumps are rated for only 8 pumps; this is outlined in the manual. You could be taking a chance on blowing out your seals. Also, you are always leaving residual pressure when you over-pump, and that's bad too. I just pump my 397 the max 8 pumps for long shots or bigger critters. 5 or 6 do for closer shots, or quick (relatively speaking) follow-ups.

As for a good, moderately priced pellet rifle, go with either a Benjamin 397 (.177), or the 392 (.22). If I would have known that my local Wal-Mart sells .22 pellets, I would have gone with the 392 over the 397, for the extra pellet mass and power. If you go with the Sheridan Blue Streak (basically the same as the Benjamins), you'll most likely have to special order 5mm (.20) pellets. ONE gunsmith around here has ONE box of 5mm pellets, and that seems to be pretty much the case all over, unless you have a large gun shop nearby that sells a lot of air rifles. Check around your area and see what the pellet selection is like, and that should narrow your choices.

I've used my 397 on squirrels, quail, and other birds, getting lots of one shot kills, but the .22 would be better for larger critters like rabbit. It usually takes 2-5 shots to put down a rabbit with my .177. A great gun though for shooting around the house. Gives you plenty of practice, and puts critters in the pot as well. And tons of fun.
 
Some thoughts on air rifles. Lewis and Clark equipped their expedition with at least one air rifle of sufficient size to take Buffalo. The idea of using an air rifle for survival is not a new one.

Should you want an air rifle for a 'long term' survival situation, you could acquire molds for pellets and bring/cache brick lead. It would be substantially harder to create .22 rounds, and they are a bit more susceptible to the elements than a brick of lead.

And Mr. Cook, you do not, by any means, need things larger than a rabbit to survive on. Even for long term. A deer might bring you a larger, more durable skin, and bigger bones, and a nice ego-boost, but it is by no means mandatory for survival. And a pellet in the brain at close range from a reasonably high-powered air gun would probably do a good job of killing a deer. You'd just have to stalk real, real good. And if all else fails, you can always follow in the footsteps of Tom Brown and take your deer by dropping out of a tree with a knife.

An air rifle is a viable alternate to a firearm for procuring meat, but not for protection or signalling. Personally, I list meat pretty low on my survival needs list, below coffee but above really soft toilet paper.


Stryver
 
I think you might survive longer on mice than rabbits.

From Bradford Angier's "How to Stay Alive in the Woods".

"A man can have all the rabbit meat he wats to eat and still perish. So-called rabbit starvation, as a matter of fact, is particularly well known in the Far North. An exclusive diet of any lean meat, of which rabbit is a practical example, will cause digestive upset and diarrhea. Eating more and more rabbit, as one is impelled to do because of the increasing uneasiness of hunger, will only worsen the condition.

The diarrhea and the general discomfort will not be relieved unless fat is added to the diet. Death will follow, otherwise, within a few days. One would probably be better off on just water than on rabbit and water."

"But any section of plump fresh meat is a complete diet in itself, affording all the necessary food ingredients even if we dine on nothing but fat rare steaks for week after month after year."


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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
 
Airguns are great, but not for survival or sustained living off the land. The shelf life is dependent on how much lead you have and the life of the spring and piston. The more powerful the more wear. Other propellent air systems have even more mechanics to go wrong. Better the bow/crossbow and snares/traps which cover nearly everything.
Today, the firearm route is diificult to argue against. The ammunition for a .22LR or .222, for food gathering only, is not much. Five shots a week should bring in enough to keep you fat. 1000 rounds for five years. Spares for a bolt action: a couple of firing pins would cover the magority of mechanical failures.
 
V Shrake,

Thanks for the info about the Benjamin/Sheridan pump number. I have one of the old (like more than 15 years old) Benjamins. I got it when Benjamin and Sheridan were seperate companies. As far as I remember, my manual says that 10 pumps is the max for my rifle and I've never had a problem with it pumping it this much. I had assumed that the current production models retained the 10 pump max.

The best "hunting" pellet I've ever used for my Benjamin is the old .177 Benjamin HC (high compression) pellets -- the ones that came in the light green screw top tins. These buggers are almost as difficult to find as the 5mm Sheridan pellets these days. In my opinion, a close second to Benjamin HC's are Beeman Ram Jets. They're easy to find but tend to be pricey as far as pellets go.


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Danny
aka "kuma575"
 
Check out the new Max Speed steel tipped pellets. I don't know any real details on them, but they sound like they would have much greater penetrating power than even your normal pointed field and hunting pellet. They show them on their website here
They may not have as great of a transfer of energy as an all lead pellet which will deform and even break apart when it hits, but the penetration may be more useful depending on the type of game, and they should still have plenty of knock down power.
If your interested in a low cost scope, check out the 3-7x20 scope ( found on same link) I picked one up the other day and its nice and bright under most conditions and will clearly focus beyond the effective rang of my gun on 7x. Its got micrometer adjustment for windage and elevation, you have to a have a screwdriver to adjsut it though. Each one has about 24 clicks per turn and will turn at least a half dozen full turns. I got mine for $19 at wal mart.

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I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer... but I've got the sharpest knife in the room.
 
Kuma;

That's interesting. The first Benjamin I ever shot was about 25 years ago, and belonged to my cousin's husband. He told me specifically to pump it only eight times, although I didn't read the manual myself. And for a 13 year-old, eight pumps took some doing. :~} About ten years later, my uncle let me shoot his, with the same admonition as to number of pumps. And I once spaced out while pumping mine up, and gave it ten pumps like the Daisy I had as a kid, and just to try it, pulled the trigger again after I shot, and got a little "burp". Sounds like you may have worked yours into a ten pumper over the years; wonder what the extra velocity is?

For pellets, I use the plain-Jane Daisy pointed hunting pellets. $2.97 for a tin of 250. I use the empty tins for making char cloth, or putting a pocket fishing kit together.
 
Thanks Hoodoo for providing "provenance" on a point I didn't cover as well as I shoulda/coulda.

Yes, I'd agree that a pellet gun IS a viable alternative to a firearm with a stipulation.
That stipulation of course is that for whatever reason, legal or otherwise, you cannot HAVE a firearm.

I find it curious that people who would not CONSIDER carrying a sub-standard edged tool into the woods would happily go into the wild places undergunned.
Sure, it's a personal choice, and not everyone LIKES guns but when it comes to personal survival, I feel that personal likes and dislikes are meaningless in the face of death.
Yes, you COULD do the Tom Brown thing and jump from trees onto a white tail, but bear in mind that of all the animals of North America, from killer bees, to sharks, to grizzly bear, the white tail deer kills more humans each year than all other animals COMBINED. (average of 130 to 135 non-vehicular fatalities a year)
A measure of respect is in order or Bambi may well settle your hash for you and close out your medical record.
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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
 
I was talking pure meat-gathering. I list meat gathering low on my list of survival needs, and guns of any kind low on the list of desired ways to gather meat. But, I do not plan for long-term survival. My survival ideas focus on keeping me alive 'till I get home, or more likely, someone picks me up. But then, in my job, people come looking real quick when I go missing.

As far as protection goes, I agree with the occasionaly need for substantial firepower. I'm a firm advocate of the avoidance method of dealing with dangerous wildlife, but I know of several places where the smallest sidearm I'd consider would be a .44 mag.

On to other things, I'd be curious to know more about the air rifles the Lewis and Clark expedition carried. I know they carried one or more, and it fired a round of similar size to the black-powder guns of the time. Does anyone know if anything like that still exists, or if they have in semi-recent history?

Stryver
 
Hmmm,
I've seen recent examples of air rifles in calibers as large as 9mm.
I don't recall the maker, but I know that the professional hunters in the Phillipines use larger caliber air guns a lot.
Might give you a place to start looking.

As I recall, the Lewis and Clark air rifle was a 30-ish caliber rifle. There was a piston inside the stock.
You accessed it by opening a cover in the butt plate and there was a screw head integral to the end of the movable piston.
You screwed the end of the piston into the side of a tree and then pumped the rifle back and forth until the cylinder (inside the stock) was full.
Apparently they got good results with it, but I seem to remember reading that they mostly just used it to impress the indians.
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Tráceme no sin la razón, envoltura mi no sin honor
 
A couple of points to add to the general discussion.

British airgun shooters are not keen on the pointed pellets. They deform easily and lose flight stability compared to more traditional rounded types. The point makes no meaningful penetration improvement. Accuracy is the name of the game. For close work: target flat wadcutters are hard to beat. I've even known some people to load their pellets the wrong way round to gain a wadcutter type killing power on rats. For stability over distance, wind resistance and penetration the rounded types have yet to be bettered. My favourate at present are RWS Superdomes. Try different brands of pellets as airgun barrels are renowned for being fussy about their fodder. Two part pellets with synthetic skirts are great if your rifle likes them, though I've yet to have a gun that did. The higher powered guns seem to prefer heavier and more robust pellets.

The Prussians caused a devastating defeat on the French (?? or was it the otherway round??) in the 19th century by using repeating military airguns. Three or five shot, pump up resevoir, large calibre air rifles.

Airgun World and Airgunner are the UK's main magazine publications. They are a real eye openner. Air Arms, Webley, BSA, Theoban are just a few manufacturers. Some of their stuff is rebranded as Beeman, but not much. You can spend $1500 on a precharged rifle over here.
 
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