Quenching in old 10w30

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BagofDeadCats

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Apr 20, 2011
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Hey guys, i was just wondering if anybody has tried this? I got a couple of gallons left over from a few changes, figured I'd put it to good use. I know it's not the #1 choice, but "make due with what you got" is kinda how I roll. If it's in the
details, I'm working with about a .30 thick 5160. Any comments would be appreciated. Have a nice day=)










"Enter obligatory movie quote here"
 
Its not a good idea.Canola oil is a good choice and readily available.
 
justin gingrich from ranger knives uses used motor oil from his truck. i got my heat treating process from him and he said that he prefers it and i have to say my self it works awesome on 5160 steel.
 
I know quite a few makers who use motor oil. Trans fluid will work too. I would quench outside motor oil will flash.
 
I'm not going to stand up for it in terms of knife making but I've quenched 1000's of O1 parts in in motor oil (usually inside) and never had a problem with it. Along those lines, I was taught by an old German toolmaker to ALWAYS use the oldest dirtiest oil I could get. I don't know if he was right about that but he was right about everything else so I'm sure as hell not going to argue.
 
I've been using used motor oil to quench 01. I found that I get better results if I heat the oil to ~ 130°F .

Ric
 
Not a good idea because of inferior thermal transfer rate, flareup, toxic fumes, etc. Fill out your profile, read the stickies, welcome to Blade Forums. Sooner or later The Count will give you his standard reply for newbies, there is a lot of good information in it. If you pay attention you will realize that used motor oil for a quenchant is a really stupid idea.

-Page
 
You know, I don't think there is anything in this reply for quenchants...

but there is a ton of good info here.






I've put this together to answer most of a new maker’s questions. I'm sure it will help you too.

The Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V21

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied at the top; many are expired, but not all.

The basic process in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
These are clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin. A paring knife slices, an axe splits.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then make it in wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
Play with that and see if it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging in general - no knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books on forging knives. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better.

Junkyard steels require skill and experience to identify the steel and heat treat it properly.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.

Forget about Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.

Videos

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many specific how to knifemaking videos are available, some are better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners that I have seen is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with machine stitchers..)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too-The account index has disappeared, but search for LOTS of info. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

You can see a list of videos and reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, A2,
Or air quenched CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.


You can find a list of suppliers here

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)

Glue – Epoxy

Use a Fresh package, slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential .
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than youfirst think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Photo of a nice bevel filing jig

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm

Mapp arm – Grinder Toolrest


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html


Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and put on safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


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V21 Added Glue Oct 3, 2011.
 
sunshadow said:
Not a good idea because of inferior thermal transfer rate, flareup, toxic fumes, etc. Fill out your profile, read the stickies, welcome to Blade Forums. Sooner or later The Count will give you his standard reply for newbies, there is a lot of good information in it. If you pay attention you will realize that used motor oil for a quenchant is a really stupid idea.

-Page
Click to expand...

i dont know about you but i am not going to put a hot blade into oil and suck the smoke up. if you think it is such a bad idea stop driving your car because it creates a lot more fumes then quenching a blade in oil. also if you know the dangers of putting 1500 degree + metals into oil then you should know not to do it with small plyers or stick your face right over it. learn to not be so rude.

the hole inferior thermal transfer is true only because yes there are better oils to use but that does not mean that motor oil is bad to use, it is actually great and gives awesome results.
 
chad2 said:
i dont know about you but i am not going to put a hot blade into oil and suck the smoke up. if you think it is such a bad idea stop driving your car because it creates a lot more fumes then quenching a blade in oil. also if you know the dangers of putting 1500 degree + metals into oil then you should know not to do it with small plyers or stick your face right over it. learn to not be so rude.

the hole inferior thermal transfer is true only because yes there are better oils to use but that does not mean that motor oil is bad to use, it is actually great and gives awesome results.
Click to expand...

I don't think Page was being rude.

He knows his stuff (much more than you will ever realize) & he gave a good answer.


Yes my grandpa did it that way too, but it WAS all he had and he didn't know any better.
I say it's much better to propagate good info in a direct answer to a direct question than to keep wives tales alive just because....
 
so your telling me that because the oil can catch fire and because the oil creates fumes and because of supposed inferior thermal transfer it is a BAD IDEA to use motor oil. if this were true then thousands of knife makers like justin gingrich from ranger knives would not use it.

now if you were to say that there are better oils to use then motor oil then i would not argue with you but to say it is a bad idea and to give no real info behind your statement or opinion is not a good argument.

every one knows the dangers of working with extremely hot metals and flamable liquids other wise they are pretty dumb to do it, just as it is pretty dumb to jump into a car and not know the dangers of driving! he made one ok point and to points about the dangers of using it come on people!
 
grumpyphil said:
No. And Otto was not the kinda guy you asked (at least not if you were a punk kid).
Click to expand...

I ask because usually when people recommend dirty motor oil, they say something about it "adding carbon to the blade". It doesn't, but I'm sure he had his reasons. Used motor oil isn't a good idea. However, O1 is pretty forgiving of oil choice, and used motor oil will work if you have nothing else, and the blade will be harder than when the steel was annealed. That's as far as I'll go with how the blade will turn out. I'll just say I made a couple of O1 twizzlers using "make due" oil.
 
I find it interesting that people have so much passion about quenchants. I kinda get it though. I'm in the computer industry and have long seen people exhibit passion about operating systems. It borders on being a religion in either case.

Still, it is interesting... and a bit odd. ;)
 
chad2 said:
i dont know about you but i am not going to put a hot blade into oil and suck the smoke up. if you think it is such a bad idea stop driving your car because it creates a lot more fumes then quenching a blade in oil. also if you know the dangers of putting 1500 degree + metals into oil then you should know not to do it with small plyers or stick your face right over it. learn to not be so rude.

the hole inferior thermal transfer is true only because yes there are better oils to use but that does not mean that motor oil is bad to use, it is actually great and gives awesome results.
Click to expand...

chad2 said:
so your telling me that because the oil can catch fire and because the oil creates fumes and because of supposed inferior thermal transfer it is a BAD IDEA to use motor oil. if this were true then thousands of knife makers like justin gingrich from ranger knives would not use it.

now if you were to say that there are better oils to use then motor oil then i would not argue with you but to say it is a bad idea and to give no real info behind your statement or opinion is not a good argument.

every one knows the dangers of working with extremely hot metals and flamable liquids other wise they are pretty dumb to do it, just as it is pretty dumb to jump into a car and not know the dangers of driving! he made one ok point and to points about the dangers of using it come on people!
Click to expand...


I don't know about you, but I've seen people die of cancer and I'm doing everything I can to avoid it.


In the quotes above, you first admit that there are better oils, then dispute that there are better oils to use.
Which position are you going to stick with?
It seems to me that you are emotionally involved in the argument and can't see straight.


Some people try to learn and improve and produce the best possible product.
Some would rather argue that their way is right.
I can see you're in the second group.

Yes your friend Justin does it that way and you're happy with the results, but maybe he doesn't know any better either?


What if you could do even better with a simple change?
Wouldn't you want to?
If you've never tried it any differently, you don't really know the difference between "OK" and "awesome" do you?
Don't you want to find out?


I find that asking someone why and then arguing with the answer you get leads to not getting an answer the next time you ask.
 
chad2 said:
so your telling me that because the oil can catch fire and because the oil creates fumes and because of supposed inferior thermal transfer it is a BAD IDEA to use motor oil. if this were true then thousands of knife makers like justin gingrich from ranger knives would not use it.

now if you were to say that there are better oils to use then motor oil then i would not argue with you but to say it is a bad idea and to give no real info behind your statement or opinion is not a good argument.

every one knows the dangers of working with extremely hot metals and flamable liquids other wise they are pretty dumb to do it, just as it is pretty dumb to jump into a car and not know the dangers of driving! he made one ok point and to points about the dangers of using it come on people!
Click to expand...

I have not been rude, just honest and direct. If your buddy at Ranger Knives truly uses dirty motor oil to quench his blades I would be surprised, but then again tactical knives do not have to really hold edges under extreme cutting conditions, they just have to not break.

I gave the simple direct reasons not to use it without getting into long technical metallurgical discussions (the last threads on quenching oil got excessively long with numerous expired equines receiving excessive flagellation.)

My last day job was analyzing metal in an aerospace metals plant, I am currently chapter president of the ASM International (Formerly known as the American Society of Metallurgists) I have been making knives since 1980. I have tested used motor oil with O-1 as well as 1084 and found that it didn't harden either one as well as vegetable oil did (and vegetable oil does not harden as well as engineered quenching oils)

When you can get Canola oil which while it is not the best quenching oil, it doesn't flare up and gives pretty good results, when used at 130 degrees for around 10 bucks a gallon (Parks 50 and AAA which are what I strongly recommend are hard to get and can run up to 50 bucks a gallon, although McMaster and Houghton have excellent quench oils for less money) using used motor oil which is an inconsistent toxic witches brew at best and I have seen people have pretty impressive flareups with is just stupid. If you find that statement rude, sorry.

-Page
 
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