Quenching in old 10w30

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Motor oil is not recommended because it probably isn't fast enough to properly harden the 5160. It will get the steel harder but with all the time you will likely have invested in making a knife it would be worth it to get a faster oil. Quenching is a simple process but the outcome can vary a lot, it is just as easy to quench in any oil but the knife will never be near it's potential.

Some steels can be air hardened and some can be water quenched, quenching speed is important.
 
If the given reasons don't satisfy you then there is this - there is much variability in additives from one oil brand to another, these will change how the oil will function as a quenchant. One mans filthy 10-30 isn't anothers.

Folks use proven quenchants, with controlled formulations, for the same reason they use known alloy steels (as opposed to mystery steel). Good tools, good materials, good procedure = good outcome.

Best
Steve
 
12345678910 said:
I don't know about you, but I've seen people die of cancer and I'm doing everything I can to avoid it.


In the quotes above, you first admit that there are better oils, then dispute that there are better oils to use.
Which position are you going to stick with?
It seems to me that you are emotionally involved in the argument and can't see straight.


Some people try to learn and improve and produce the best possible product.
Some would rather argue that their way is right.
I can see you're in the second group.

Yes your friend Justin does it that way and you're happy with the results, but maybe he doesn't know any better either?


What if you could do even better with a simple change?
Wouldn't you want to?
If you've never tried it any differently, you don't really know the difference between "OK" and "awesome" do you?
Don't you want to find out?


I find that asking someone why and then arguing with the answer you get leads to not getting an answer the next time you ask.
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very good arguement. my only problem with what was said is people are saying it is a BAD IDEA to use it. yes there may be better oils then motor oil but that does not make motor oil BAD. that is why i kind of went back and forth on that, but yes i am always looking at bettering my ways but like i said just because somthing is better does not make the other BAD.

driving gives 80 % of children now in big cities asthma does that mean you are going to stop driving your car NO! it does not and that is BAD! that is why this is bothering me if you want to minimize cancer stay out of the sun dont use cell phones dont use microwazes dont drive cars dont eat processed food come on people!
 
^ It does, in fact, make it bad. Yes it is an oil. And yes you can quench in it. Thus, it probably can be termed a quenching oil. That, however, does not mean it's good, or even ok. I mean, a D is a grade, but just because it's a grade doesn't mean it's a good one. There are available plenty of good quenching oils, both engineered, and off the shelf food grade. They are good. Motor oil just doesn't have the required thermal transfer properties that make a good quench oil. It is bad.

edit: to remove snark, sorry about that. Quench oil is sort of a third rail around here. Things can get heated fairly quickly.
 
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sunshadow said:
I have not been rude, just honest and direct. If your buddy at Ranger Knives truly uses dirty motor oil to quench his blades I would be surprised, but then again tactical knives do not have to really hold edges under extreme cutting conditions, they just have to not break.

I gave the simple direct reasons not to use it without getting into long technical metallurgical discussions (the last threads on quenching oil got excessively long with numerous expired equines receiving excessive flagellation.)

My last day job was analyzing metal in an aerospace metals plant, I am currently chapter president of the ASM International (Formerly known as the American Society of Metallurgists) I have been making knives since 1980. I have tested used motor oil with O-1 as well as 1084 and found that it didn't harden either one as well as vegetable oil did (and vegetable oil does not harden as well as engineered quenching oils)

When you can get Canola oil which while it is not the best quenching oil, it doesn't flare up and gives pretty good results, when used at 130 degrees for around 10 bucks a gallon (Parks 50 and AAA which are what I strongly recommend are hard to get and can run up to 50 bucks a gallon, although McMaster and Houghton have excellent quench oils for less money) using used motor oil which is an inconsistent toxic witches brew at best and I have seen people have pretty impressive flareups with is just stupid. If you find that statement rude, sorry.

-Page
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I wish I would have been given advise like that when I started :)
 
UUUUUMMMM chad2, i highly doubt MR. GINGRICH who was fortunate to broker a deal with ONTARIO who produces his ranger line of knives DOES NOT use motor oil.........anymore, we all start in a small spot in a corner using what we have, motor oil works, mine is "thinned out", i havent quenched in a while and my next batch will be in mineral oil, and then the batch after that will be in PARKS 50, and then i will have satisfied my need to "DO IT MY WAY" skip the motor oil and get to the CANOLA!!! GHaile
 
Does the type of oil matter that much with 5160? I can see it making a difference with 1095 or w2, but 5160 will air harden in thin sections...
With that much chromium and manganese, I have always assumed the type of oil was not important, and that a slower quench might actually be better for steels of this type.

Not that I'm suggesting used motor oil.... I'd rather grind on buffalo horn without a mask than smell that...:)
 
I'm not going to recommend motor oil, but I will say that I quenched quite a few 5160 blades in it in the past. It worked pretty well. Deeper hardening steels like 5160 or 52100 will work better with an oil that has poor heat transfer properties, things like the manganese in them help them harden fully in a slower quenchant. You'll get a tough blade, at least. Shallow steels like W series have to be really thin to harden in motor oil. Doesn't work well. You should still grind any blade that will be quenched in motor oil pretty thin at the edge.

Motor oil quenches a lot better if heated up to 120 deg. or so. As mentioned above, it flares up. If you are going to try using it, do it outside. Wear a welding glove. Have a lid for your tank. Even well designed quench oils can flare up if edge quenching- try to have the whole blade (tang too, just sink the tongs in a bit, too) in the oil, as really hot steel part-way out of the oil is the main factor in flare-up.

Canola oil is a whole lot cleaner than motor oil, less smoky, less hazardous to your health, less toxic in general, fairly cheap, and smells a WHOLE lot better in your shop. Even if quenching in motor oil outside, the smell will stick to your clothes. To me, that's a lot of good reasons to skip the motor oil stage of your personal bladesmithing journey. I know that you're just messing around with knives right now, and your tooling and methods will always improve over time, but dirty crankcase oil is pretty nasty stuff.

Page can be a little blunt sometimes, but he does know his shit. He's a good guy to go to for metallurgical advice.
 
Wow! Thanks for all the advice guys, sorry about posting it in the wrong area....Anyways lots of appreciated opinions (most with reasoning behind them), I'm glad to see so many knowledgeable people respond, It seems that canola oil is a acceptable quench on the forums, prolly just go with that. Thanks again for your interest. Have a nice day =)




"Enter Obligatory Movie Quote Here"
 
Motor oil is BAD because A: It really does not work B: It produces toxic fumes( Just because you don't breathe in the initial smoke, does NOT mean the toxic fumes have went away) And C: It really does not work......You can champion the cause of motor oil all you want, but that still doesn't change the fact that it really doesn't work.
 
Nobody is championing the cause of motor oil here. If course it's not the best thing to use, or even one of the best. Keep in mind though, the question sought not for an answer of ultimate perfection, but for real world experience and perspective. I think that ultimately, we've given him that.

Hell, Jim Hrisoulas' early books had recipes for recommended mixes of motor oil, diesel fuel, ATF, for different quench speeds. Regardless of whether that information has stood the test of time, I defy anyone to tell me that JPH doesn't do amazing work, or that his knives didn't work well then.
 
I would have to believe that they would have been even better with proper quench oil. Real world experience and perspective show that common motor oil is about as poor of a quench oil as one can use, and testing results by the common time honored file test, will not separate the wheat from the chaff.
 
I have been staying out of this discussion because of the heated nature of using other than accepted forms of quench medium. However I feel the need to make a few comments.

I did use used motor oil for quite a few years as this was the way I was taught. I would like to know what the definition of does not work is? Is it making over 150 cuts through a piece of 1" manila rope. Is doing the ABS JS test multiple times with many blades successfully not working? Is it dangerous to use? It can be but then so is any oil based quench medium. I have parks 50 flash on a regular basis and it smokes quite a bit. Breathing any oil smoke is not a good idea weather it be petroleum or vegetable base. Do I recommend using used motor oil? NO. There are many great engineered heat treating quenchants out there. If you cannot afford one then I would recommend going with canola, peanut oil or mineral oil. Then save up your pennies and buy one of the engineered oils when you can.
 
A C Richards said:
I have been staying out of this discussion because of the heated nature of using other than accepted forms of quench medium. However I feel the need to make a few comments.

I did use used motor oil for quite a few years as this was the way I was taught. I would like to know what the definition of does not work is? Is it making over 150 cuts through a piece of 1" manila rope. Is doing the ABS JS test multiple times with many blades successfully not working? Is it dangerous to use? It can be but then so is any oil based quench medium. I have parks 50 flash on a regular basis and it smokes quite a bit. Breathing any oil smoke is not a good idea weather it be petroleum or vegetable base. Do I recommend using used motor oil? NO. There are many great engineered heat treating quenchants out there. If you cannot afford one then I would recommend going with canola, peanut oil or mineral oil. Then save up your pennies and buy one of the engineered oils when you can.
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yes lets hear the results :D
 
also just to make you guys happy i will be changing to canola oil or vegetable oil.

my only question is what is the cheapest best oil to use out there and thanks for changing my mind :D

also what is a good oil to use for cpm 154cm i was going to use motor oil but i would like to use a better oil :D
 
chad2 said:
also just to make you guys happy i will be changing to canola oil or vegetable oil.

my only question is what is the cheapest best oil to use out there and thanks for changing my mind :D

also what is a good oil to use for cpm 154cm i was going to use motor oil but i would like to use a better oil :D
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That is usually an air quenching steel

The quenchant speed must be matched to the steel.

Steels are classified as air, oil, and water quenched.

http://faq.customtacticals.com/datasheets/154cm.pdf


It needs precise temp control and soak in a vacuum furnace or sealed envelope and cryo for best results.
You can send it out for HT

The standard reply has more info about that.
 
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SShepherd said:
who's most people ?

I'm curious, how long have you been making knives?
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there is a thread i can not remember exactly the name of it but just about everyone who has used 154cm said the used a two bar or oil quench also i talk to justine gingrich from ranger kinves my self he also said oil is the way to go here is the crucible website that shows rockwell hardnesses after oil queches

http://www.trugrit.com/CPM154HeatTreatSpecs.pdf

how long have you been making knves? jess some of you guys can be pretty effing rude! i am asking a question and no one is giving an answer just bashing me for what i have heard i am not a lier.
 
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