Questions about axe handles (fawns-foot to start with)

[300Six]

The competition chopping video is enlightening. Just like being effective with a baseball ball bat that fellow puts his entire weight into the swing. Arms need to be straight and rigid to do that. Presumably the curve at the swell provides some sideways wrist leverage to break out the chip(s).
Off topic but that gentleman seems to leave the haft wedge well proud of the head. This would make for easy tightening and would also make haft removal a breeze. Makes us appear to be just a bunch of dummies via gluing wedges in place so that they can't come out nor be replaced.

 

[Chignecto Woodsman]

Another image to clarify my last post:

We see in this photo that given the same axe head position and distance the wrist could only be at the same distance in both situations by changing your body and wrist position on the curved handle to compensate for the ten degree change in angle/distance - essentially causing the axe head on the curved handle to be farther away from the target. Otherwise, leaving the wrist distance and body position the same would mean that the curved handled axe would be ten degrees forward (or whatever angle the Gransfors curve is set at) of the straight-handled head, approximately an axe head's length. This would mean sacrificing full swing potential, and the axe hits too soon.

Either way, an axe head distance must be compensated for when using a curved handle through the wrist position, body position, or the hang of the axe (which would sacrifice hitting squarely and/or pivot alignment).

 

[cityofthesouth]

essentially causing the axe head on the curved handle to be farther away from the target.

You gotta break this down for me, I just can't get my head around it. All I can see is the head being closer. OK ETA: After reading it like 20 times. You're saying since the head is closer, the user makes a bigger swing to compensate for the head being closer?

 

[Chignecto Woodsman]

I mean that it's either/or. Either the head will be closer to the target when your wrist is in the same location/distance/point starting the swing (since the angle forces it that way), or to make the head as far away as the straight-handled axe would be you would have to adjust your stance to compensate for the changed wrist angle, and thus make the swing longer.

There may be more whip with the curved handle, but due to the change in body position the axe would be essentially farther away since you are creating a new pivot with your body's position and movement, and the whipping motion would be less accurate by nature.

 

[chuxwan]

Doing some experimentation, the squeeze of the snap is something that occurs with both straight and curved handles. The curve just creates even more travel (this being with the off hand sliding down the haft rather than a moulinet or other techniques) so I think it's back to that increase in impulse.

Yes, that is the point. With a straight handle you have to squeeze tightly to achieve this because there is no real estate on the underside of the pivot point - it is only accomplished by squeezing more with the pinky/ring finger. With a fawn's foot, there is a surface which, when you're exerting pull force away from the head, presses against your pinky and encourages rotation. Anyway, the difference may be moot

Edit: In other words: With a straight haft and no swell, the ability to snap is reliant solely on the friction of gripping the axe handle with the bottom hand. With a fawn's foot, the hand can be gripping relatively loosely and the axe will still snap around because your pinky becomes a fulcrum for levering the axe.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Yes, that is the point. With a straight handle you have to squeeze tightly to achieve this because there is no real estate on the underside of the pivot point - it is only accomplished by squeezing more with the pinky/ring finger. With a fawn's foot, there is a surface which, when you're exerting pull force away from the head, presses against your pinky and encourages rotation. Anyway, the difference may be moot

Edit: In other words: With a straight haft and no swell, the ability to snap is reliant solely on the friction of gripping the axe handle with the bottom hand. With a fawn's foot, the hand can be gripping relatively loosely and the axe will still snap around because your pinky becomes a fulcrum for levering the axe.

Not quite what I was getting at...I mean the exact same effect occurs with both but with the fawn's foot, because it curves away from the hand more rather than being a linear extension, the amount of travel for that lever is increased. Both make use of a levered pivot around the top of the bottom hand just before impact, but the increased arc length of the curved handle increases the impulse.

 

[chuxwan]

Not quite what I was getting at...I mean the exact same effect occurs with both but with the fawn's foot, because it curves away from the hand more rather than being a linear extension, the amount of travel for that lever is increased. Both make use of a levered pivot around the top of the bottom hand just before impact, but the increased arc length of the curved handle increases the impulse.

Oh, now I see what you're saying. Thanks for clearing that up for me, I'm a little slow Probably time to stop drinking coffee for the day and switch to something else.

 

[upnorth]

Not sure where you live, but around here, ever since aluminum tubing began to supplant wood, snow shovel handles have become increasingly convoluted (makers tout this as 'ergonomic!) to the point of ridiculousness. And yet they sell by the truckload every time another even 'more bent' version comes out. I grew up with straight-handled snow shovels and don't find these 'new-fangled' designs to offer anything in the way of increased comfort or ease of use, but consumers are fickle and 'money talks and marketing BS doesn't necessarily walk' anymore.
You will very much notice not having a swell at the butt of an axe! It tells you precisely where your back hand is positioned and allows you not to have to grip so firmly so as not to have the tool slip out of your hands before, during or after a swing. Curved haft is a similar idea in that you can feel where on the handle your rear hand is without having to look.
Super-thin hafts are not something that is commercially available anymore. They require carefully selected wood and knowledgeable craftsmen to make. But they do have a lovely flex to them. Most of us have blithely paddled boats for years using thick and inflexible paddles and then had a sudden revelation and (prompt conversion) when exposed to a carefully crafted Cherry (or other hardwood) paddle that behaves not unlike a leaf spring.

I apologize if this interjection is a tangent. I am 50/50 unhappy with the handle on my Husqvarna hatchet. Part of me feels that I will just use it and let be. Maybe it will be fine forever. But the grain is cockeyed and the handle has run out basically on both sides. I have spotted some local dead Choke Cherry down by a creek here. This wood is classified a Hard hardwood and the natives here used it for digging tools. I am thinking of harvesting this wood and keeping some around for a possible future first time handle carving. I tried contacting Husqvarna about the handle and after tremendous buck passing I was told to go back to the dealer, who barely wanted to order a single hatchet in when he sells power equipment. So I have no desire to go through the dealer and explain grain orientation\run out etc., as he just does not care or want to spend the time relaying this to HIS distributor, yada, yada. Is it ok to rough out a handle form or should I just keep the round as a solid chunk to avoid drying warpage ? I do not trust the current handle. Thanks.

 

[Tom Crain]

No. It can only pivot along line 'A' if you relax your grip and let it pivot on that axis. The pivot is in your forearm not your grip. The grip angle is simply the angle in which the two pieces (forearm and haft) are joined. It's not complicated.

If you hold a straight stick or straight axe haft then you will naturally change the tilt of your wrist. But the pivot will still be in your forearm and not in your grip. If anything a straight haft requires more tilt of the wrist.

Wrists bend and arms rotate. this makes Square-peg correct??????

 

[littleknife]

Wrists bend and arms rotate. this makes Square-peg correct??????

Try to rotate the same axe head on a straight handle with the wrist bent to the point that the axe pivots in exactly the same axis as the curved handled axe in the picture.
Does it feel comfortable and safe? If not, may this suggest that different handle shapes might allow for different ranges of wrist bends?
Also, is this pivoting with one outstretched arm controlled/checked by the same (as in: exactly the same, no other) muscles as the pivoting at the end of a two handed swing?
Also, does the wrist stay in the same bent position during the swing? Is the wrist a more easily stabilized joint than the elbow?

Just some food for thought.

I think the question how the different bone groups and joints move in the arm during an axe strike are very important issues regarding ergonomic use(s) of axes.

I have used the flex screwdriver analogy: it is like comparing the efficient movements of the bits of several flex screwdrivers, all bent/flexed to a different degree, and all trying to move the same screw. They definitely require different holds to achieve precision, and not all holds are equally comfortable.

But I think in this case what is relevant is not if the specific axe with the specific handle shape Square_peg uses for his video demonstration allows for the specific movement he thinks proves Cook wrong, but what is relevant is this:
are the curved axe handles inherently less accurate ("prone to greater wobble") during actual axe use than straight handles?

Regarding this question, the whole issue of analyzing the complex movements of the whole arm, both arms, or even the whole body is not so relevant, what is relevant is the effective movement of the axe itself. Also, this movement is generated by forces at the contact(s) between the handle and transmitted by the contacting surfaces of the gripping hand(s).

The question thus is, do different handle shapes introduce different kinetics and dynamics at the business end of the axe if all other factors (axe head, handle length, force transmission at the grips) are practically the same?

We have already agreed, that the same practical accuracy can be achieved, since professional axe-men using curved handles are observed to achieve great accuracy.
I think this is achieved by changing the force transmission compared to the one used with straight handles. (Force is directional i.e. has a vector component beside the absolute value, so force transmission can be changed by changing direction, absolute value, or both.)
Once again, the important part is the actual, resulting effect on the axe bit.

 

[300Six]

I apologize if this interjection is a tangent. I am 50/50 unhappy with the handle on my Husqvarna hatchet. Part of me feels that I will just use it and let be. Maybe it will be fine forever. But the grain is cockeyed and the handle has run out basically on both sides. I have spotted some local dead Choke Cherry down by a creek here. This wood is classified a Hard hardwood and the natives here used it for digging tools. I am thinking of harvesting this wood and keeping some around for a possible future first time handle carving. I tried contacting Husqvarna about the handle and after tremendous buck passing I was told to go back to the dealer, who barely wanted to order a single hatchet in when he sells power equipment. So I have no desire to go through the dealer and explain grain orientation\run out etc., as he just does not care or want to spend the time relaying this to HIS distributor, yada, yada. Is it ok to rough out a handle form or should I just keep the round as a solid chunk to avoid drying warpage ? I do not trust the current handle. Thanks.

Cherries are soft (relatively speaking) and flexible, and prone to dry rot (ie how long has this tree been dead). There isn't much stress on a hatchet so you can get away with murder with regard to grain.

 

[upnorth]

Cherries are soft (relatively speaking) and flexible, and prone to dry rot (ie how long has this tree been dead). There isn't much stress on a hatchet so you can get away with murder with regard to grain.

Thanks for the reply. I felt a bit bad for dropping this into the thread. I walk a creek when frozen in winter and I saw some fairly thick Choke Cherry over hanging and flood killed by root exposure. I don't know how long dead, but she looks pretty stroked out. I don't know if I can reach it now because the ice is a bit spooky. But I will take any knowledge and tips that you and others have to pass down, even if used for future reference. Thanks.

 

[Oxbow]

I apologize if this interjection is a tangent. I am 50/50 unhappy with the handle on my Husqvarna hatchet. Part of me feels that I will just use it and let be. Maybe it will be fine forever. But the grain is cockeyed and the handle has run out basically on both sides. I have spotted some local dead Choke Cherry down by a creek here. This wood is classified a Hard hardwood and the natives here used it for digging tools. I am thinking of harvesting this wood and keeping some around for a possible future first time handle carving. I tried contacting Husqvarna about the handle and after tremendous buck passing I was told to go back to the dealer, who barely wanted to order a single hatchet in when he sells power equipment. So I have no desire to go through the dealer and explain grain orientation\run out etc., as he just does not care or want to spend the time relaying this to HIS distributor, yada, yada. Is it ok to rough out a handle form or should I just keep the round as a solid chunk to avoid drying warpage ? I do not trust the current handle. Thanks.

I make most if not all of my own tool handles. My process is to make "blanks" and set them aside in a dry shed for future need. It is much easier to work wood green, so I take the green wood down to rough handle proportions squared off. For axe handles, I thin down the handle area to pretty close, while leaving lots of wood at the butt and a great deal of wood at the head to allow for different size and shapes of eye. If it were me, I'd take a couple of those chokecherry branches and make some handle blanks. They won't cost you anything but your time, and then you have more than one in case they move while they are drying.

With ring-porous wood like ash, I make the blank and set it aside with no further treatment. With diffuse porous wood I usually put some stretch wrap around the ends with a twist tie to slow down drying from the end grain to prevent it from checking too bad. Apple,birch, lilac, and ironwood (blue beech) are the woods I use the most this way and they all check really badly if you leave the end grain exposed. I have never made an axe handle out of diffuse porous wood, but I know that it has been done very often in the past.

For my handles I typically use ash or black locust, because that's what grows here on the farm. There is shagbark hickory around, but I don't have any on this farm. I like to make things out of my own woods. I've never had a homemade handle break yet, but I'm sure I will sooner or later.

 

[upnorth]

I make most if not all of my own tool handles. My process is to make "blanks" and set them aside in a dry shed for future need. It is much easier to work wood green, so I take the green wood down to rough handle proportions squared off. For axe handles, I thin down the handle area to pretty close, while leaving lots of wood at the butt and a great deal of wood at the head to allow for different size and shapes of eye. If it were me, I'd take a couple of those chokecherry branches and make some handle blanks. They won't cost you anything but your time, and then you have more than one in case they move while they are drying.

With ring-porous wood like ash, I make the blank and set it aside with no further treatment. With diffuse porous wood I usually put some stretch wrap around the ends with a twist tie to slow down drying from the end grain to prevent it from checking too bad. Apple,birch, lilac, and ironwood (blue beech) are the woods I use the most this way and they all check really badly if you leave the end grain exposed. I have never made an axe handle out of diffuse porous wood, but I know that it has been done very often in the past.

For my handles I typically use ash or black locust, because that's what grows here on the farm. There is shagbark hickory around, but I don't have any on this farm. I like to make things out of my own woods. I've never had a homemade handle break yet, but I'm sure I will sooner or later.

Quite interesting, thanks. I should save this someone on the pooter. My experience last year was disappointing. I cut some nice potential Choke cherry pieces and I made the mistake of peeling the bark before storage. I had a terribly cracked mess months later.

 

[Skweeker]

There have been some comparisons here to swinging a baseball bat or a golf club. This has been justified by the fact that both sports use implements having straight handles which then implies an intrinsic advantage as regards accuracy else the associabd sport would have adoptd a different form long ago. I assert that such is not the case.

During a batter's swing baseball bats rotate on the very longitudinal axis much of the arguments here have been about. This rotation begins most commonly at the maximum point of swing velocity (mentioned in the bat article if I'm not too mistaken) but often even before depending upon the individual batter's coordination and unique body design. Notice that a completed baseball swing results in crossed forearms and a complete 180º rotation of the bat on its axis. This means that any bat design other than a straight cylinder that utilized either a specific sculpted shape of the area of impact (like that seen In a cricket bat) or a non-linear design (like a modern aluminum handled snow shovel) would also require an orienting grip similar to those found on axe hafts (oval, octagonal). That there is any question to the ease of use of such a simple design being the reason for baseball bats' design longevity I only have to ask if anyone has ever seen a cricket player hit anything even remotely resembling a National/American league home Run?

I am now of the opinion that the curved haft allows (obviously among other things mentioned in this thread) for a bit to strike early enough in the user's swing to aid in avoiding longitudinal tool rotation that occurs at or near the critical point of maximum force if only by a few small degrees of swing arc that can be completely ignored by batters in the box with their rudimentary cudgel. In other words - it buys a little time.

As to golf I can only point out the strong adherence to tradition which likely accounts for the miniscule changes to club design in recent times and the resulting fanatical attention focused on neutral club face orientation at the moment of impact by the "average" duffer. That this is difficult is only exacerbated because the tool is antiquated. The excessive worry and consuming neurosis over the prevention of either generating a "hook" or a "slice" at the tee is often accompanied by a tendency toward excessive drink.

I think Cook spends 80% analysis on axe physics and 20% on body physics. Actual axe use involves 80% body physics and 20% axe physics.

Yup.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

An interesting observation, but I don't think that curved handles were intended to prevent rotation at all, as such a rotation only occurs after crossing the sternum. This wouldn't occur when chopping a tree, as the bit would contact the target well before such would occur.

 

[Skweeker]

An interesting observation, but I don't think that curved handles were intended to prevent rotation at all, as such a rotation only occurs after crossing the sternum. This wouldn't occur when chopping a tree, as the bit would contact the target well before such would occur.

In essence I agree. I am not saying that this is a formal scientific theory and it may not have ever been a fully concious intention at any point in axe handle design history. What I am saying, though, is that the curve near the swell does delay the onset of wrist bind to a point later in a horizontal (or felling) swing than is acheivable with a straight haft when swung by any one particular individual.

Generally you are correct that rotation doesn't occur until after the bit would meet wood but It should be remembered that textbook conditions do not consistently exhibit themselves in the real world. As well all people are built differently and this affects each individuals' performance. I am not merely being diplomatic here. I can point to two unrelated individuals I know personally (and well) that cannot rotate their wrists/forearms so that their palms face upward. Though both are well adapted to their life and indistinguishable from others around them (other than by their good looks) neither would be able to comfortably perform a horizontal felling stroke without discomfort and/or a reduction in effectivity. It is safe to assume that there are also indivduals who present exactly the opposite conditions. I myself, though without such obvious physical deviations from the general norm, still notice increased comfort when swinging a curved handle over using a straight handled version. This is despite the fact that I usually feel more confident in applying greater force with a straight handle - but that's another story. I also cross the sternum all the time as conditions demand.

I am convinced that, by using a curved handle, most individuals can maintain their form (and aim) slightly longer through the arc of a typical two-handed swing and can, to some degree, enjoy a wider grace zone where they are at or near peak power therby delaying the point at which they must absolutely meet wood or rotate the axe and foul strike. This likely has the effect of taking a little pressure off - exactly the opposite of golf. Though I don't have the axe experience of most folks here I do have extensive experience with body motion dynamics as part of a former career and have noticed this aspect when using an axe - especially at less than ideal angles and more so the heavier the bit iI'm using. Often these are the times I am more likely to reach further into the swing past the "sternum" line.

Perhaps this is just a happy by-product of curved handle implementation but I'm adding it to my curved handle "plus" column.

 

[cityofthesouth]

There have been some comparisons here to swinging a baseball bat or a golf club. This has been justified by the fact that both sports use implements having straight handles which then implies an intrinsic advantage as regards accuracy else the associabd sport would have adoptd a different form long ago. I assert that such is not the case.

The Axe bat already exists and has been adopted, and the reason that the traditional bat persists is exactly that, tradition. Companies who have created variants of modified bats, "axe bats", have reported difficulties gaining acceptance because of the deep tradition of baseball. In fact, the traditional baseball bat is well known to cause specific hand injuries. But because of bat guidelines that have to be changed, it is (or was) difficult to get a new design into MLB. Other hurdles are sponsorships and the tradition of the companies that produce bats - everyone wants to swing the Louisville Slugger, for example. A traditional bat is also dead simple to turn. A traditional wood bat also has two "sides" if you will, so that you aren't always contacting the bat in the same place. An axe handled bat creates a single hitting zone on the bat since it has to be held in the same way all the time. This has been overcome with bats of materials other than wood and in those leagues using bats of other materials (NCAA, just last year) the axe bat is becoming common place. But, baseball only helps us with the ergonomics of the swell and the swing itself - the similarities start to disappear after that. Not to mention that improving a baseball bat could be accomplished a thousand ways, but a game requires standards, chopping trees doesn't. The object of a game is not to make it easier, or else we would have seen the baseball bat change completely.

Golf, as near as I can tell, shares few commonalities with axe use. But baseball swings are similar and very well studied, so it is useful to attempt to understand the forces at work.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

[video=youtube;Lx5HisUTy8E]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx5HisUTy8E#t=93[/video]

 

[Double Ott]

Well, ya learn something new every day....

I still like wood.

AXE BAT

Tom