Questions about the Sai

Disco Stu

Disco Stu

Joined
Nov 9, 1999
Messages
1,137
OK, t'other day I get to thinking about Sais and what their intended use was. The most confusing parts are: (1) Any Sai you see today will be completely blunt for some odd reason. (2) If you watch some one using a sai in a movie or on TV you will always see them putting their first two fingers over the guard. Now, nobody can argue with me when I say that it would make a much better weapon if you ground a sharp point on the end. No you can't, so don't even try. I'm not listening. Furthermore it seems to me that if they were used properly, the 'guard' should be used for catching an opponents weapon, which would not be wise if you had your fingers there.

So I ended up doing a 'net search and found conflicting stories of it's origin and use. One theory states that it evolved from a tool for planting rice. The other claims that it was a hair pin many years ago. Also, one states that it WAS sharpened in days past while the other claims that it was always blunt because it was a defensive tool and fairly worthless as an attaking weapon. I disagree here as I'm not blind. It seems to me to be a very effective offensive weapon. You've got the upswept guard (excuse the lack of proper terms) that looks very good for catching and turning blows from almost any weapon and, provided the points were sharp, you could deliver mortal wounds to the chest and neck.

So can anyone help me out here. You martial artists out there, How are they used today? Are the blunt ends only for safety while training? Do you in fact put your fingers over 'guard' thus making it worthless for deflecting blows?

And finally, where could I buy a decent pair? If a decent pair cannot be had, I'll fire up the forge and make some. It should be fairly simple other than welding the 'guard'. Have to work on my welding.

Thanks.
 
My understanding was that the Sai had originally been developed as a constabulary tool, a truncheon, much like it's cousing the Jutte (Jitte). As the Shogunate waned, more and more samurai turned their swords to banditry and ruffianism. Local police forces were thus oftentimes faced with surly or drunken, sword-wielding Ronin, who--while not necessarily bent on mayhem--posed a serious threat to the local citizenry. So, a strong, non-lethal solution was necessary. The Sai/Jutte provided this, in a weapon that was built to be too thick and strong to chop through, while allowing control of a captured sword.

Finally, the weapons lacked a usable point because a) it would be almost suicidal to close against a swordsman with a weapon so much shorter, and b) this was meant to be a non-lethal means of control and disarmament.

As an aside, have YOU ever been poked with a Sai? I have, and rest assured, blunt or not, it's purt' danged unpleasant. Even in playin' around.

My itty-bitty bit o' knowledge. Anybody else got anything?
 
Well Stu, You inspired me to get my Sai out and see how much I remeber of the Sai kata that I used to run. Most of the time when you hold the Sai you have the blade against your arm and you the handle to punch with or they are flipped to attack. When they are out, I was taught your thumb should be at the tip of the handle but still where the gaurd protected it so you could flip easily. Basically when the blade is against your arm your defensive and when the blade is out your offensive. The point on them is kind of dull, but it could do alot of damage. Mine are made out of 1 solid piece of carbon steel with a leather wrapped handle. It would do alot of damage if you hit somebody with it.

It is my understanding that the sai came from Okinowa and started out as a planting tool like almost all the weapons of Okinowa. But they needed to defend themselves and it was modified to be a nonlethal weapon. However if you hit the right places Im sure it could be lethal. I think the Shoalin also had a version of the Sai, though I dont know much about them, maybe the Chinese version had a sharpenned blade, I dont know. There a pretty cool weapon to play with, almost like flippin a bali. They are the one weapon I feel best using and I would feel fine with them should I come up against a katana. I hope this helped.
 
I always thought that Sai were sharpened on the end. I wonder about the planting thing too. How would you use something vaguely sai shaped for planting something, especially I am guessing rice? Seems like I heard once that they were for picking up bundles of hay which on the surface at least seems more likely. Someone want to straighten me out.
 
That does seem a more likely use, Triton. I guess we'll have to wait for someone more knowledgable to come along.

Kalindras, I think it would work just fine for closing with a swordsman. Firstly, I believe they range from 18 to 24 inches (not VERY sure on that) thus making them nearly as long as some swords. Furthermore the sai's ability to catch and, in the hands of a pro, disable an opponents weapon would likely make it fairly easy to dart in for a serious blow. And providing they were sharpened, one puncture in the neck or chest is all it would take to bring the fight quickly to an end. I imagine that it could indeed be quite painfull even dull but I still don't see the logic. If it was indeed developed as a weapon against rogue samurai, then I think I'd want something a little more deadly than a poking stick.

The reason I'm so interested in this is because time and again I've pondered over the perfect weapon, the best all around defensive/offensive tool. What I always end up with is something very similar to the sai as we know it today, only it would have to have a sharpened point.
 
Well, I'm no expert either, but I was fortunate enough to have trained (although too briefly) with a knowledgeable teacher of a very "old school" style of Okinawan Karate. This is some of what I learned.

The structure of the sai itself. Traditionally, the length of the sai was determined by the length of your forearm (from wrist to elbow). The main shaft of the sai should be a little longer than your forearm ... I think about an inch is normal. My understanding is that there was variation in how the said was made depending upon what the user preferred. On some the main shaft was round, while on others, it was octagonal. On some the point of the main shaft and the tips of the guards were quite pointy, while others were more rounded. On some, but but was even pointed ... a "skull crusher" of sorts. Generally the tips of the guards turn outwards, but on some they turned inwards, towards the main shaft. The ones you generally see today are very light in comparison to a well made pair from Okinawa and are lighter still than an authentice pair (ie made when they were still used on a regular basis).

Function or use of the sai. The "guards" are in fact used to capture weapons, whether it be a bo (staff), fist, etc. I'll never forget my introduction to how this really works. In back yard of my teacher's house, he instructed me to attack him with "focus" (i.e. I was supposed to try to clean his clock with my choice of attacks). I was totally unprepared for what followed. He evaded my attacks while tapping my arms/legs with either sai (gesturing strikes to my appendages) and finally trapping my wrist with one sai and applying kotegashi. As I completed my breakfall, he gave a loud kiai as he gestured a powerful thrust to my throat with the full weight of his body behind the one sai while keeping my wrist pinned with the other sai. When I think about "what if that had been 'for real'", I want to :barf: All of the thrusting attacks using the various tips that I learned were directed at vital areas or pressure points and the main shaft was often used to strike. As I witnessed my teacher using it, the sai is a much more complex and flexible weapon than I had previously thought. :cool:

Going against a samurai & his katana, armed with a pair of sai ... as they say in NYC ... "Sucks to be you!" ;) The sai were certainly used against various other kobudo weapons, e.g. the bo, tonfa, etc and may have been used against a katana, but I suspect instrances of the latter were rare and only as a last resort. Try an experiment sometime to see what I mean. Take a bokken, shinai or rattan stick the length of a katana, a pair of sai (with well rounded tips), a couple pairs of lacrosse gloves and some fencing masks. For safety's sake establish some safety rules: like only go half speed and all action stops if the sai guy gets inside on the sword guy. Take turns using the "sword" and the sai(s). The lesson that you'll learn is a universal one when playing against a weapon with a range advantage ... ie size (in this case, length) DOES matter and although you CAN get inside on the longer weapon, it is NOT easy and you WILL take some lumps getting there. The question you have to ask yourself is ... how many "lumps" can you take from a real sword and still consider yourself to have been "successful" at the end of the day? ;)

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
Good info Dave. Clears some things up for me. Thanks.

While I still think a pair of sai would make a fair weapon against a sword, I don't think it would be a good idea to get in a fight with a trained samurai with any kind of weapon. :)
 
No problem Stu.

Yes, the sai could go against a katana, but you'd have to be REALLY good with them and REALLY good at closing the gap too against even a mediocre swordsman because of the disparity in the weapons' ranges. It could be done, but there are certainly other weapons that are better suited to the task.

If I was going to choose the sai, I'd be working along the lines of a sai kata that I learned (can't remember the name) that involves a third, "hidden" sai that is drawn after one is thrown. The kata is usually done with only two sai and the throw/drawing of the 3rd sai is a "hidden" application. I did do the kata outside (including on the beach) using 3 sai and it was pretty cool.

Also, I recall hearing a story of a master of Okinawan Kobudo that approached an old master of the sai to ask the old master to teach him. The old master (perhaps to test the young man's sincerity or to just scare him away) throw a sai at the young man, which the young man dodged and the sai stuck in the door frame (so the story goes).

I think this story and the kata I mentioned in the previous paragraph serve as anecdotal evidence that at least some sai had sharp points. So Stu, it sounds like you're on the right track with regards to sharpening the points on the sai.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
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