Randall Made Knives
- Thread starter FullerH
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Les Robertson
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Hugh,
Yes, in Panama during jungle training. We spent alot time in the water. During amphibious assaut training and patrolling. I saw the leather handle of a model 1 unravel rendering the knife useless. A Gerber BMF and it's compressed foam type rubber handle, dry rotted in a week and chunks fell out of the handle.
At Ft. Campbell, I saw the tip break off a model 2 while opening up cans. Now granted it was not the right tool for the right job. However, it did break. My Brend model 2 opened up 55 gal drums of diesl fuel and never broke.
Hugh from the 40's- late 50's Randall's were probably the epitome of knives. But today, the knives are put together by committe, not by one world class knife maker. The materials they use are fast becoming antiquated. Although, Im glad to hear they are using ATS-34.
While tradition and reputation are great things. If they do not keep pace with the industry they will be passed by. Have you ever heard of a Humley? In the 1930's it was the finest washing machine that could be purchased anywhere in the world. The list goes on and on about compaines who became the best in the world, rested on their laurels and found themselves being overun by their competition.
The same thing happens in custom knives as well. The guys who are at the top have to struggle to stay there. The competiton for customers in custom knives is getting tougher. Consequently, innovation is the name of the game. Stainless steel, 440C and black micarta has given way to titanium, ATS-34 and G-10, that is starting to give way to titanium, BG-42 or 440V and Carbon Fiber. All of these changes have occured in less than 10 years. The envelope is being pushed further by makers using Talonite, Stellite, 420V and other steels or metals that we dont know about yet.
As we grow older nostalgia starts to creep into our lives. However, the reality is that many of our favorite older knives are starting to become memrobilia. Look at the demand for war era Randall's compared to current issue. I remember when there was a 2 year wait from Randall, I remember when you paid a premium for Randall's. Now you can pick up Randall's at large gun shows for less than list. This is not an indication of a company moving forward.
Les
Yes, in Panama during jungle training. We spent alot time in the water. During amphibious assaut training and patrolling. I saw the leather handle of a model 1 unravel rendering the knife useless. A Gerber BMF and it's compressed foam type rubber handle, dry rotted in a week and chunks fell out of the handle.
At Ft. Campbell, I saw the tip break off a model 2 while opening up cans. Now granted it was not the right tool for the right job. However, it did break. My Brend model 2 opened up 55 gal drums of diesl fuel and never broke.
Hugh from the 40's- late 50's Randall's were probably the epitome of knives. But today, the knives are put together by committe, not by one world class knife maker. The materials they use are fast becoming antiquated. Although, Im glad to hear they are using ATS-34.
While tradition and reputation are great things. If they do not keep pace with the industry they will be passed by. Have you ever heard of a Humley? In the 1930's it was the finest washing machine that could be purchased anywhere in the world. The list goes on and on about compaines who became the best in the world, rested on their laurels and found themselves being overun by their competition.
The same thing happens in custom knives as well. The guys who are at the top have to struggle to stay there. The competiton for customers in custom knives is getting tougher. Consequently, innovation is the name of the game. Stainless steel, 440C and black micarta has given way to titanium, ATS-34 and G-10, that is starting to give way to titanium, BG-42 or 440V and Carbon Fiber. All of these changes have occured in less than 10 years. The envelope is being pushed further by makers using Talonite, Stellite, 420V and other steels or metals that we dont know about yet.
As we grow older nostalgia starts to creep into our lives. However, the reality is that many of our favorite older knives are starting to become memrobilia. Look at the demand for war era Randall's compared to current issue. I remember when there was a 2 year wait from Randall, I remember when you paid a premium for Randall's. Now you can pick up Randall's at large gun shows for less than list. This is not an indication of a company moving forward.
Les
Cobalt
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Les, I cannot disagree with the fact that the Brend is a tough knife since I have heard this stated by others also. I also consider D-2 to be one of the best big blade steels available, due to it's toughness factor and I would prefer it over the CPM steels in a big knife right now. Maybe when the CPM steels have proven their worth this will change. Since you know more of the custom knife world than I do, doesn't a forged knife offer qualities over a standard knife that is not forged? Also based on this, is it not reasonable to assume that there is no way currently to tell which of those two would be better, cryo D-2 or forged 440(O-1). All I can imagine is that the Brend has more thickness to the tip of the blade than the Randal and thus resists bending and breaking, could this be? I know Brends are stout, but were the Randal broke seems like it may have been thinner.
I will not argue with your point about the Brend being tougher since you would know better than I about this.
I will not argue with your point about the Brend being tougher since you would know better than I about this.
Les Robertson
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Hi Red Mag,
First, a decorated sebenza (depending on when it was made) could be a custom knife. I would consider all the older models to be custom knives.
However, the newer ones (18 months or less) have not been worked on by Chris. Consequently, these would be considered a bench made type knife, akin to Randall. A new decorated Sebenza would be a customized bench made type knife.
One other thing. The guys that are making the knives for both Reeve and Randall are talented craftsmen. Scott Cook at Revee's is a very fine knifemaker in his own right. Most to of these employees of both companies will probably go on to make custom knives on their own. What they are doing now is bascially going through an apprenticeship. These individuals would be called Journeymen in many trades. This indicates a status that has been earned through the ability to produce either a product or a service at a certain level of quality. The American Bladesmith Society (ABS) has ratings that reflect this in their organization.. Journeyman and Master Smith.
This rating also indicates a earning level as well. You dont pay the Journeyman as much as the Master.
Now that the segue into forging has been made lets go there. Yes, Cobalt there are advnatages to forging. You can distally taper a blade (making it thinner as you go from the spine towards the cutting edge). Also, you can use differential heat treating. This allows you to make the spine a RC (Rockwell Harness) of 48 and the edge a RC58. This allows flexability in the blade.
Forged Bowies have proven their worth all over the world.
Unfortunatley, here in the modern era, we like our knives to look exactly the same after we use them as they did before we used them.
Because of the metalury of carbon steel this is not possible. These knives will rust and discolor faster than their Stock Removal kin!
I could recommend a forged blade to anyone who was looking for a serious work knife. Just dont get upset when it changes color the first time you cut a piece of meat with it.
Hope this answers the questions.
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
First, a decorated sebenza (depending on when it was made) could be a custom knife. I would consider all the older models to be custom knives.
However, the newer ones (18 months or less) have not been worked on by Chris. Consequently, these would be considered a bench made type knife, akin to Randall. A new decorated Sebenza would be a customized bench made type knife.
One other thing. The guys that are making the knives for both Reeve and Randall are talented craftsmen. Scott Cook at Revee's is a very fine knifemaker in his own right. Most to of these employees of both companies will probably go on to make custom knives on their own. What they are doing now is bascially going through an apprenticeship. These individuals would be called Journeymen in many trades. This indicates a status that has been earned through the ability to produce either a product or a service at a certain level of quality. The American Bladesmith Society (ABS) has ratings that reflect this in their organization.. Journeyman and Master Smith.
This rating also indicates a earning level as well. You dont pay the Journeyman as much as the Master.
Now that the segue into forging has been made lets go there. Yes, Cobalt there are advnatages to forging. You can distally taper a blade (making it thinner as you go from the spine towards the cutting edge). Also, you can use differential heat treating. This allows you to make the spine a RC (Rockwell Harness) of 48 and the edge a RC58. This allows flexability in the blade.
Forged Bowies have proven their worth all over the world.
Unfortunatley, here in the modern era, we like our knives to look exactly the same after we use them as they did before we used them.
Because of the metalury of carbon steel this is not possible. These knives will rust and discolor faster than their Stock Removal kin!
I could recommend a forged blade to anyone who was looking for a serious work knife. Just dont get upset when it changes color the first time you cut a piece of meat with it.
Hope this answers the questions.
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Cliff Stamp
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Les, the advantages you state are possible in stock removal, they are not limited to forging. Kevin McClung uses stock removal instead of forging and his knives have a differential temper and some (all?) have a distal taper. His main steel (O1) is also a high carbon steel. I will be getting a Busse BM in INFI soon, hopefully this summer, but more likely the fall. I would be very interested to hear of any forged knife that you think would be more durable than it and still cut as well (or better of course).
-Cliff
-Cliff
Les, I agree with you about the leather grips. They stink. Were I to order a Rndall today, I believe that I would pay the extra for a more durable grip. As to the breaking, I have now heard of two incidents, both from you. I do think that is a problem. I also agree that they are not using state-of-the-art technology. But, for my uses, which are camping and hunting, they are still damned fine knives.
Thank you for your patience, but may I ask another question, this time not about Randall. In another thread, Jerry Fisk got involved in discussing Bowies. I asked if anybody knew of someone making a copy of the Bart Moore Bowie, and he looked into it. He came up with Ben Lane of North Little Rock, Arkansas. Do you know anything of his work and do you know of any others making the Bart Moore Bowie? Thanks again.
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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 29 April 1999).]
Thank you for your patience, but may I ask another question, this time not about Randall. In another thread, Jerry Fisk got involved in discussing Bowies. I asked if anybody knew of someone making a copy of the Bart Moore Bowie, and he looked into it. He came up with Ben Lane of North Little Rock, Arkansas. Do you know anything of his work and do you know of any others making the Bart Moore Bowie? Thanks again.
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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 29 April 1999).]
FullerH--I did not accuse Les of perjury, after all, he was not under oath. I asked him if the word "perjury" meant anything to him since perjury is to testify falsely and deliberately.
Cobalt--This is an old issue between Les and I. I suppose hearing it for the first time it sounded a little strong, but since it was round two and Les hadn't learned completely from round one, strength was warranted.
Les--The comment about the cookie was only meant to bring a little levity to an otherwise emotional topic--probably more for me than you. I want you to know I think you are tops in your field and I would never presume to push a single fact about "custom" knives on you because you are "the man" in this area. But I have also spoken to Tom Clinton from time to time--I'm sure he would not remember me though. My point is that Bob Gaddis' book is considered the bible on the history of Randall Made Knives. It was researched in conjunction with Bo, Gary, and many other shop people and if Tom Clinton stated to you that Bo didn't have an active participation in the shop after 1939, he is mistaken. So you are off the hook for passing on false information. The other side of the coin is that comments made by people about their involvement may be faulty because memories are often wrong. My point is the book should carry a heavier weight for authenticity since it was sanctioned and edited by the Randalls themselves. I am no expert on Randall Made Knives since I only discovered them in 1990, but I have learned a few things, and those things have been backed up by Mr. Gaddis' book. I would be glad to send you my copy for a time, or you can order one from Randall for $50, your choice.
Now I think I will sit down in a corner, without my cookies and milk (peanut butter are the best) and do penance.
Les, maybe someday we can argue the merits of combat tactics versus logistics! I remember the QM school told me once that there is a natural progression at Fort Benning from Infantry to Adultry! Oops, wrong forum! (see my big smile!) BTW, I own a few "customs" too and they don't fight with my Randalls in the gun safe.
Sorry, Les (head bowed, eyes closed, hands clasped, unemotional look on face).
Cobalt--This is an old issue between Les and I. I suppose hearing it for the first time it sounded a little strong, but since it was round two and Les hadn't learned completely from round one, strength was warranted.
Les--The comment about the cookie was only meant to bring a little levity to an otherwise emotional topic--probably more for me than you. I want you to know I think you are tops in your field and I would never presume to push a single fact about "custom" knives on you because you are "the man" in this area. But I have also spoken to Tom Clinton from time to time--I'm sure he would not remember me though. My point is that Bob Gaddis' book is considered the bible on the history of Randall Made Knives. It was researched in conjunction with Bo, Gary, and many other shop people and if Tom Clinton stated to you that Bo didn't have an active participation in the shop after 1939, he is mistaken. So you are off the hook for passing on false information. The other side of the coin is that comments made by people about their involvement may be faulty because memories are often wrong. My point is the book should carry a heavier weight for authenticity since it was sanctioned and edited by the Randalls themselves. I am no expert on Randall Made Knives since I only discovered them in 1990, but I have learned a few things, and those things have been backed up by Mr. Gaddis' book. I would be glad to send you my copy for a time, or you can order one from Randall for $50, your choice.
Now I think I will sit down in a corner, without my cookies and milk (peanut butter are the best) and do penance.
Les, maybe someday we can argue the merits of combat tactics versus logistics! I remember the QM school told me once that there is a natural progression at Fort Benning from Infantry to Adultry! Oops, wrong forum! (see my big smile!) BTW, I own a few "customs" too and they don't fight with my Randalls in the gun safe.
Sorry, Les (head bowed, eyes closed, hands clasped, unemotional look on face).
Les Robertson
BANNED
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Cliff,
If mad dog's are distally tapered, he needs to go back and try again. The ones I have handled are clunky at best. I saw no evidence of distal tapering. Pick up a 10 inch Bowie made by one of the ABS Master Smith's and compare it (in weight) to a Mad Dog. You will be amazed at what true distal tapering is.
Bruce,
RECOVER!(to a civilian that would indicate it is time for you to stand in the upright position). True Infantrymen do not have time for adultery. As the Army never saw fit to issue us a wife. Women were not part of my issue at CIF (Central Issue Facility).
Its interesting what you were taught at QM School. While I was the Benning School for Wayward Boys, we were taught that we were the athletes and that the support units such as the Quarter Master Corp were the athletic supporters!
Ok Ok, Bo Randall Made knives until 1985! He hand forged every single knife ever made in Orlando, FL, Springfield, MA and in his spare time flew to Soligen Germany and made blades over there on weekends.
However, today his knives are not considered custom knives. IN THE BROAD SENSE OF THE CATAGORY OF CUSTOM KNIVES, NOT IN THE COMPLETE LITERAL SENSE THAT CLIFF STAMP HAS ETCHED ON THE INTERIOR OF HIS SKULL!!! LOL!
Hugh,
Bruce and I go way back. He waits until Im sucked into a discussion on Randall's. Then he pulls out the gospel according to Gaddis and beats me about the head and shoulders with it.
I have tried to explain to him, that anything I have to say about Randall knives is of no consequence. As I only claim expertise in Custom knives. And as we all now know...Randall's are not custom knives!
Dont take my word for it, call Al Pendray President of the Knifemakers Guild and ask him why Randall Knives are only an associate member!
However, it could be that that the great and powerful OZ (i.e.Gaddis) has addressed that issue in the Bible! LOL
More to follow....Film at 11
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
If mad dog's are distally tapered, he needs to go back and try again. The ones I have handled are clunky at best. I saw no evidence of distal tapering. Pick up a 10 inch Bowie made by one of the ABS Master Smith's and compare it (in weight) to a Mad Dog. You will be amazed at what true distal tapering is.
Bruce,
RECOVER!(to a civilian that would indicate it is time for you to stand in the upright position). True Infantrymen do not have time for adultery. As the Army never saw fit to issue us a wife. Women were not part of my issue at CIF (Central Issue Facility).
Its interesting what you were taught at QM School. While I was the Benning School for Wayward Boys, we were taught that we were the athletes and that the support units such as the Quarter Master Corp were the athletic supporters!
Ok Ok, Bo Randall Made knives until 1985! He hand forged every single knife ever made in Orlando, FL, Springfield, MA and in his spare time flew to Soligen Germany and made blades over there on weekends.
However, today his knives are not considered custom knives. IN THE BROAD SENSE OF THE CATAGORY OF CUSTOM KNIVES, NOT IN THE COMPLETE LITERAL SENSE THAT CLIFF STAMP HAS ETCHED ON THE INTERIOR OF HIS SKULL!!! LOL!
Hugh,
Bruce and I go way back. He waits until Im sucked into a discussion on Randall's. Then he pulls out the gospel according to Gaddis and beats me about the head and shoulders with it.
I have tried to explain to him, that anything I have to say about Randall knives is of no consequence. As I only claim expertise in Custom knives. And as we all now know...Randall's are not custom knives!
Dont take my word for it, call Al Pendray President of the Knifemakers Guild and ask him why Randall Knives are only an associate member!
However, it could be that that the great and powerful OZ (i.e.Gaddis) has addressed that issue in the Bible! LOL
More to follow....Film at 11
------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Les, which MD model did you handle. If you are looking for a very light in hand fighter then a Panther would probably be your best bet. Some of his models are blade heavy and thick, Arizona Hunter, TUSK etc.
Oh yeah, and there is nothing etched on the inside of my skull, it just has a lot of empty space. I use it to store my sharpening equipment and Tuf-Cloth.
-Cliff
Oh yeah, and there is nothing etched on the inside of my skull, it just has a lot of empty space. I use it to store my sharpening equipment and Tuf-Cloth.
-Cliff
Les, below are facts I think we both can agree to:
1) Randall's are not custom knives under the guild definition.
2) Randall had help in his shop from nearly the beginning. Bo was rarely found in the shop after about 1947 (mostly in the office).
Gary, his son, worked in the shop off and on from 1960 through about 1968 and then transfered to the office. Gary's son Jason works in the shop now forging blades.
3) The Army is a good place to be "from" (although I got awkward and allowed PERSCOM to transfer my RA commission to a NG commission when I got out. I'm trying hard to learn to spell "Kosovo!"
Les, to get back to custom knives. I would like to have a 7 inch combat knife made for me. Nothing exotic (micarta or G10 handle, tapered tang, my own design, would prefer a premium stainless steel but would listen to reason for a premium carbon steel), a user so not too pricey, not a collectable, but definitely "custom." Any suggestions on a couple of makers to talk to? Thanks for your help.
...and remember (in case you were "mech", a PC without ammo is just a mobile radio, without maintenance...just a pill box). If you were "leg infantry" I don't need to offer an insult, leg infantry is it's own punishment! QM motto is "Keep the best and issue the rest"...to the Infantry!
Thanks, Les.
Bruce Woodbury
1) Randall's are not custom knives under the guild definition.
2) Randall had help in his shop from nearly the beginning. Bo was rarely found in the shop after about 1947 (mostly in the office).
Gary, his son, worked in the shop off and on from 1960 through about 1968 and then transfered to the office. Gary's son Jason works in the shop now forging blades.
3) The Army is a good place to be "from" (although I got awkward and allowed PERSCOM to transfer my RA commission to a NG commission when I got out. I'm trying hard to learn to spell "Kosovo!"
Les, to get back to custom knives. I would like to have a 7 inch combat knife made for me. Nothing exotic (micarta or G10 handle, tapered tang, my own design, would prefer a premium stainless steel but would listen to reason for a premium carbon steel), a user so not too pricey, not a collectable, but definitely "custom." Any suggestions on a couple of makers to talk to? Thanks for your help.
...and remember (in case you were "mech", a PC without ammo is just a mobile radio, without maintenance...just a pill box). If you were "leg infantry" I don't need to offer an insult, leg infantry is it's own punishment! QM motto is "Keep the best and issue the rest"...to the Infantry!
Thanks, Les.
Bruce Woodbury
I have never been in the army. But I do use my knife in remote places where my life has depended on it not breaking. I had a CS Recon Tanto and it cost me 60 bucks. It never failed me, even when I had to cut a patch of steel out of a 50 gallon drum to patch a gastank.
I just ordered a Randall 14 with a leather handle. It cost me 350 bucks. The most I have ever spent on a knife, hell could have bought a gun. Now I am worried my life is in danger.
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The pen is mightier than the sword...but not as much fun!
I just ordered a Randall 14 with a leather handle. It cost me 350 bucks. The most I have ever spent on a knife, hell could have bought a gun. Now I am worried my life is in danger.
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The pen is mightier than the sword...but not as much fun!
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2000
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One of my friends (an AVID Randall fan - he has dozens of them) had one break on him in the field (I don't remember the model - might have been a model 1) He used what was left of the blade till he got back. The knife went back to Randall, and was reground into a short knife for him, at his request
I thought Randalls were all handmade? Are they CNC'd? Also, Les mentioned something about Chris Reeve's knives. Did they used to be handmade?
Personally, I really like the look and feel of the Model 14, but as Les mentioned, the brass guard may be weak.
As for MD's, I have a Seal ATAK and have owned a few others and liked then except that the handles were slippery. As least they were to me.
Personally, I really like the look and feel of the Model 14, but as Les mentioned, the brass guard may be weak.
As for MD's, I have a Seal ATAK and have owned a few others and liked then except that the handles were slippery. As least they were to me.