refusal of ABS submission knives?

I wasn't trying to start any disagreements in here...sorry for that.

Jerry, I agree with your sentiments on the MS test. I think that if a maker could submit all of those pieces built with equal supreme workmanship that he would be a master... but that's not to say that I think the current standards aren't tough! :) I simply mean I can see where that would increase the abilities one must build up in order to obtain the stamp.

I also wonder about the idea of a smith being asked to retake some testing procedures at different points in their career...say every 5 years or so???

I don't think anyone here has been trying to dismiss the great things that the ABS has done to push the bar for so many makers throughout not only the country but the world.

Thanks for all the comments guys!
Nick
 
Jerry and Ed,You are two of the most talented bladesmiths in the world IMHO.I am a stock removal maker and a wannabe bladesmith.Having read the posts here makes me want to ask several questions or make some comments.I would think that the ABS would be only concerned about the quality of the steel,the difficulty of the pattern,creativity of the maker and lastly the performance.I would also think that at that level fit and finish would be a given and not enter into the criteria.There are many makers that can make art knives but not many that can bring out the spirit of the steel that you two do.You guys make it walk and talk, something most of us can only hope for.Jerry, I like your idea of the different styles of knives but to me that makes you a Master Knifemaker, not necessarily a Master Bladesmith.They can be both one in the same and that would be the true master.Hell, to me it is an honor just to share a few words with you guys.Just my $.02,Dave
 
Dave: Thank you for the kind words. You have brought to the discussion the one thing that is missing in the "standards". What standards tend to do is assure conformity. Conformity is not what any organization of this nature needs. For the forged blade to continue to grow, we do not need to only copy the knives of history, we must advance our champion. Along with any masters or phd program are requirements for research, not regurgitations of what has been done or said, but voyages into the future. Science and art go hand in hand, one cannot exist without the other. In many university programs, the instructors must publish or perish. There is a good reason for this, if the professors are not fully focused on the frontiers of their field, if they do not dream, the students will not be in demand when competing with students who have been exposed to the future of their field. Bill Moran was a dreamer when he brought those Damascus blades to that first New York show and when he and some others initiated the ABS. These are the visions we need to encourage. How many dreamers have avoided the ABS due to these standards? Sadly,we will never know. But, we need to encourage their participation in the future.
 
Nick and Dave
Naw, we ain't fussing we just giving view points and opinions. You bring up some good points that since you are going for your stamps would be good to know etc.
For one we cannot retest every so often. The reason is that the ABS is set up as a educational organization not a professional organization. There is a big difference. If we do things that a professional group would do then we would lose our tax status and then we would end up having to go up on our dues greatly and other problems that would hit us. It is set up now as an educational orgainiaztion due to Bill Moran and the Late Paul Burke. We can teach and educate the public and some other things but we must always have in mind about crossing the line. If you want to belong to a professional organization some smiths join the Knifemakers Guild. I am amember of the guild. However in the end I am better served by the ABS, personally. Retesting would set us up as professional.

Another thing is that a few people once they attain their MS stamp,at that time thinks they have arrived and leave their work as it is and do not grow. Fortunately very few do this. We prefer looking at it as getting your MS stamp is the equivalent of getting your college degree. You have the degree now it is time to go to work to earn it. Nearly all does this. This is good. The buying public themselves will give the motivation for growth and the stretching of the art side as well as the preformance part. The makers continue to push each other to do better both with the performance level and the fit and finish. What was considered standard for decent MS work 15 years ago it turned in by the applicants for their JS work now.
As to fit and finish being a given. No it is not. We have had applicants try to disquise flaws in damascus with super glue we have had them try to cover up fit and finish with other details.

Another way to look at it is that a maker may be very good with the art side but in a hurry with the basics i.e. fit and finish like the grind lines being even etc. For instance Raymond Rybar went for his MS. At first glance it would blow you away with his orginial designs and his work. But when you got up close it lacked enough that it was decided that he needed more time before he got his MS. We talked with him in the judging room and encouraged him futher and to not lose sight of what he was doing with his own styles but to clean it up a bit. He went for his MS the following year again and had no problem. He just needed a bit more time. I like his work, he is also growing now.
Conformity. That is not good. We have been asked numerous times to standerdize the classes taught at the ABS school. It was decided not to simply because that is what it starts doing. It is better to have each teacher teach what they do. Styles methods or work and all. I am very much against conformity in the ABS. But again, we have to balance and remain being a educational organization.
Dreamers are always welcome and hope fully encouraged to keep on dreaming what the if's. We have a good mix of dreamers and doer's. We also not only encourage our members to go out and take it a bit futher as well as ask them to publish their findings but also will actually pay them to publish in our American Bladesmith Journal. A measure of our sucess is due to our sharing with each other. When Mr. Moran showed the first damascus in Kansas City at the Guild show he freely told people how to do it. That spirit is what still encourages the smiths to keep pushing and learning.
jf
 
Keith
Sorry I forgot your posting.
I have often thought that we needed a step above MS for those who could attain it. My guess would be approx 10% of the Masters could go the step above. Yes it would be difficult. All Masters are not created equal. This would recognize those that could do the work. I personally think it would be a good idea but I do not think the abs needs it quite yet. I think one day it will. Right off hand the only ABS Masters that I could think of that would pass it would be Steve Swarzer, Hudson, Fogg, Newton, Hancock and Dean. There may be a couple of others bumping the gates but not quite there. But again, it is not time yet to do such. That is the one thing I watch careful and that is not let my personal thoughts get involved. You have to go what is good for the greater portion of the members and not what you personally want. Keith, I always like your thinking. You think before you write. My old Daddy used to tell me "Boy,in a war of words you go unarmed". He was right.
 
This has been absolutely fantasticly informative. I had not known about the educational versus professional organization as far as the ABS was concerned. The nature of this debate has taught me a great deal about what the ABS stands for and how it operates. I find that when all is said and done there is not that much of a difference in how Ed an Jerry see things as concerns the ABS. It is just that Ed sees things with more the thoughts of a dreamer and Jerry is more the pragmatist. Neither is wrong in how they see things, they just see them from a different point of view.

To me this has not been a squabble, just a healthy debate that has lead to some very interesting observations.
 
Keith
No squabble at all. I respect Eds view points cause they have merit. Different view points are what keeps everything running well. If only one side dominates then it is lost.
The part about being an educational organization sure has its draw backs some times cause there is so many things we would like to do that we are greatly hampered at. But with time there is changes. Glad you could learn something.
jf
 
Originally posted by fisk
My opinion of what a master is that an appliciant should submit a dagger, a sword a folder and bowie and a knife of his choice. A smith that could submitt all of those with equally high workmanship is a true Master but there is not a dozen guys in the country that could do so.
Click to expand...

As Robert A. Heinlein said "specialization is for insects."

JD
 
JD: While you may feel specialization is a trivial facet, don't forget, the insects represent the only challenge to the supremecy of man. One is watching you fight now, waiting.
 
And when bugs inherit the earth and evolve to a point where it is possible, I wonder what kind of knives their Mastersmiths will make.

Just an off topic thought.
 
This is a great thread. Honest, sincere opinions without the usual b.s.ing around. My 2 cents worth. The ABS judging for JS and Ms ratings are a test, simply that. Bring your best work, pass the test, get on with it For several years you work your ass off to get to the point that you are able to request a review of your knives by the board. It takes dedication, serious thought, and lots of hard, hot work.It is all voluntary on the part of the knifemaker. Now here is a good question. If you don't have complete confidence in the review board,and their knowledge and ability, and the honor of that boards approval; then why in the world would you submit the knives in the first place. Now, having purged myself of all that. The quillion dagger always seems to stir people up. It did me. Let me tell ya'll a little story. In April before the Blade show in June I had the opportunity to show my quillion dagger to some of the ABS board members to critique. Lo and behold I was informed that the rules said at least a 10 inch blade and NOT about a 10 inch blade; that 9 3/4 inches just wouldn't make it. Saying I was upset does not do it justice. Dr. Batson just smiled and said make another one just like it a little bit longer. I did. And he was absolutely right. The standards are the same for all applicants. All the smiths submitting knives did it. We all have problems with this one. Thats why its there. A quillion dagger is difficult. An art quality, damascus quillion dagger of Master quality is up there in a class by itself. Call it an art knife, don't call it an art knife, doesn't matter. Just make it. Not poking at Ed or anyone else here but this question begs to be asked. If you thought so little of a knife that it wasn't stamped before submitting it to the ABS board for MS judging, why would you use that MS stamp on your knives. Has a bad ring to it. Like i said a great thread, us smiths need to talk serious stuff evey once in a while. Be careful folks mike
 
I have never used my JS or MS stamps on my knives. I will not sign a knife that I don't believe in 100%. The hardest knife for me to make is one I don't believe in. My problems with the dagger are many and very sincere. In other posts it was mentioned that there should be follow up testing of Masters. The best the ABS can do is keep out of the master's way and let them be. There are places where the ABS attention needs to be concentrated, for example, there are many traps the beginning blade smith can fall into all need fatherly advice. When it comes to bad business practices or problems with misrepresentation, this is a place where action on the part of the ABS board will benefit both the organization, the makers and their clients.

I feel that if any changes need to be made it is in the performance testing of master applicants. We have come a long way since the ABS was formed and the performance tests have remained ignorant of the increased levels of performance that are now easily attainable. No organization is perfect and none should be closed to criticism. The ABS has provided excellent schools for beginning blade smiths, they should be taught with encouragement to the advancement of the forged blade and leave the school with more qustions than they have answers. When I returned home from attending Bill Moran's forging tutorial in Laramie, I had a legal size notebook filled with questions, this is the ideal teaching method.
 
Originally posted by Ed Fowler
...there are many traps the beginning blade smith can fall into all need fatherly advice. When it comes to bad business practices or problems with misrepresentation, this is a place where action on the part of the ABS board will benefit both the organization, the makers and their clients.
Click to expand...

Ed,

I think this is a good subject for a new thread. If you could put a few of those traps you're thinking about down on the paper ... I mean on the board, it would be very valuable to us beginners...

Thanks,

JD
 
I have learned much from this discussion, but wanted to interject something.

The discussion, I believe, centers around the mistaken belief that "standards" inhibit the growth of the student, or in the very least, impose unnatural boundaries. (Correct me here if I've read this incorrectly.) There is a side issue of "art".

If some educational organization doesn't impose standards, then there is no measurable way to assess the performance of a student or for that matter a professional. Standards are needed in any endeavor, educational or professional, or the discipline is without merit. In fact, the higher the standard the better the performance of the members of the discipline. Why do we worry about testing students and comparing scores? To show that we meet standards. I think that the standards testing that the ABS has had in place are necessary for the organization. Look at the respect that the organization has garnered through the years...I believe this to be the result that the organization has chosen to set standards.

Then do standards impose some notion of a boundary on the thinking of the organization. Look at the medical industry. They have had some radical thinkers among them who have come up with some original thoughts, such as, ulcers are caused by bacteria and supported it with research. The idea was out-right rejected at large, but was later confirmed and accepted. Science organizations are like this, but it has mostly to do with the individuals who become religious with the "standards". Not very many people are open-minded, they follow standards because they are predictable (a nice attribute). But the new ideas are adopted into the standard and that is how science moves forward. Only with critical analysis can we advance.

Open-minded individuals are never bounded by standards. They learn them, use them, and then test them, over and over. It is not the standard that is the problem, we need them. It is the individual that is at fault and it is hard to teach someone to think "out-of-the-box". And I don't think it is the responsibility of the educational or professional organization to do this...it is the internal community that must encourage it. I think the ABS does this very well.

One final thought...can "art" be standardized? No. Art techniques maybe, but not art. Art is, in general, not science. That is, art does not rely on physics or mathematics, but on individual or group opinions. Has art made leaps forward or advanced? Not in the sense above. Art, to me, is too subjective to be placed into a standard.

Just some thoughts,

Jeff
 
Ed,
Will you please explain to me why you would work so hard to achieve mastersmith status and then not stamp your knives. I am just not understanding what it is your saying.
steph
 
Dear Steph:
Ed stamps his knives w/his intials connected--ONLY when he believes in the spirit of the knife itself......our society puts lots of emphasis on letters after your name...ED DOES NOT..Ed does not need those letters after his name...his work speaks for itself....and quite honestly there is not another bladesmith alive that can do what he does...others copy, but they still cannot put out what Ed does....Bill Burke is the ONLY one who even comes close...
Ed did not even sign the dagger that the ABS finally accepted because he did NOT believe in the spirit of the dagger itself...you will not find anyone who believes in his work more...he will NOT sign a blade he does NOT believe in....I hope this helps you...this thread is getting very hot
if you have more questions, feel free to email ..
thanks,
angie fowler:rolleyes:
 
That is an awful big piece of pie to cut.
 
"Ed does not need those letters after his name...his work speaks for itself....and quite honestly there is not another bladesmith alive that can do what he does...others copy, but they still cannot put out what Ed does....Bill Burke is the ONLY one who even comes close..."

:rolleyes: :confused:
 
Jeff: Good thoughts, art must have that sense of emotion to be art. Art is a personal thing that cannot be standard. Standards are impersonal and subject to emperical evaluation. Both have their place. To dictate to another what is art is wrong and can never be defended. My contention is and has always been, if the dagger is art, it must be felt by and be origonal to the creator.

It was the word "art" that I got hung up on and still feel very strongly about.

It was mentioned that swords and other stuff should be included in the Master program. This is absolute nonsense. The result would be trinkets that look like swords. I know a man who has devoted an entire lifetime to the study and art of the sword. Swords that work and have the spirt of the sword in them. He admits that he has only scratched the surface. The sword has been an artifact of many civilizatons and probably hundreds of thousands of blade smiths devoting all their talents to one specific type of sword. Families sharing information for generations and still learning. It is the height of conceit to think that our bladesmiths could achieve even a portion of their achievements, or that we have in our community the knowledge to judge?

I do not put my MS stamp on my blades for many reasons. I did not earn the MS stamp to somehow achieve excellence. I do not consider myself a master of the forged blade, only a serious student
seeking to know a part of what has been forgotten or can be. I just finished some knives, The best I have ever made, I learned from each one. And cannot wait until I start work on the next blade. I have known only a precious few masters, read some of their works daily and hope to understand their message. I hope that the last knife I finish will be the work of a master.

I thank all who have joined in this discussion and hope more follow. Sharing thoughts about knives and people is what the world of knives is all about.
 
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