"Reparations for Slavery?"

Ya know, I think I'm entitled to some money. being the mutt that I am, the people of the world have been more than uncivil to my people...and thus me. I am part Cherokee. I think Yvsa and I, and everyone else of NDN blood, deserve a check. Yeah, that'd be nice. Oh! Oh! Oh! I just remembered. I'm Irish too. Man, we had a hell of a time. I mean, not even counting the strife on our own island we were pelted with stones and thought to be sub-human. Even lower than blacks. We worked cheap because we were starving. So I think America owes me a bit of cash for that too. While I'm at it, I would like to sue both the human that discovered the potato as well as God. I mean, if we hadn't been tricked into using the evil starchy root as a crutch, and God had not brought on the little ice age killing our crops, then we wouldn't have had to come to America looking for work.
My father-in-law just found out that his family did have a memeber come over on the Mayflower. i believe that my wife should sue England for some money for giving her such a hard time several hundred years ago...oh and they better throw in some fish and chips. She loves that stuff:)

See how silly this is? What these folks demanding reparations don't seem to get is that without all this bad $H*& that happened, they wouldn't even be here. If the Cherokees had not been shuffled around, then my Great Grandmothers (both sides had one) would not have ended up in the area to meet my Great Grandfathers. Without the French Revolution then my other Great Grandfather wouldn't have been born in England and met my Great Grandmother. His family was nobel and would have lost their head if they stayed in France. Without Hitler stirring things up, then my grandfather wouldn't have made it to Europe in the US Army and brought my grandmother back home. I hate that bad stuff had to happen to good people, but I wouldn't be alive if it hadn't. The world is full of bad stuff, but bad stuff seems to begat babies. Babies that grow and keep the world spinning.
The thing that gets me is that a large number of people asking for something that didn't even happen to them are "Christian". Now, I'm not a religious man in the sense that I believe everything in the Bible. (Don't tell my wife, but I find church uncomfortable and forced). However, one thing that every Christian learns is the Lord's Prayer. There is a line in it that goes "...Forgive us our trespasses (debts) as we forgive those who trespass against us." We must not forget the past, but we can't live in it either.

Jake
 
Reparations are a bad idea.

I do think that the genocide and ethnic cleansing we did to the ndn's was our lowest moment as a country. Slavery can't hold a candle to their gripe. I am sorry that happened Yvsa. I'm sorry we kept slaves too. We must try to avoid such deplorable behavior in the future.

Now please don't get mad at this, it is not intended to inflame. I beleive the luckiest Africans on this planet are the African Americans. Slavery was wrong, and its been a hard transition from that system. Racism has been a tough foe for American blacks. But would any of them be better off had their ancestors not been American slaves? It seems fortune smiled on them when their forefathers were brought here rather than ANYWHERE else. I see your pain over slavery, and I acknowledge it. But acknowledg for me that you would not have 1/4th the opportunity anywhere else. America is infused with a rich history of blacks serving this country. Earning respect through glorious patriotic sacrifice in each and every one of our wars while simultaneously overcoming sterotypes and added hardships. Please feel proud of your American heritage, and get over the payoff, it just won't solve any problems at all.
 
Hi Dave:

You put it very well. Much better than I could of and I echo your post. My relatives came to the USA from Norway and had a tough time. But, they learned english and melted into american culture. Whatever trouble they had is long over and has nothing to do with me.

When I was a boy in the fifties the words negro and colored were commonly accepted by all to refer to that race. There was no slur attached. Then came the race riots where they cleverly burned down their own neighborhoods and one of the things to come out of that was calling them blacks. I spent decades adjusting and using that word so I wouldn't offend anyone. Now I am suppossed to use the term african americans. I don't know why or care. I won't learn different nomenclature for the same race every few decades.

Neither I nor my ancesters did anything to any black. I have hired them, worked with them, socialized with them and they live on my street and are welcome. I don't have a problem with blacks or any other race or group in my country leagally.

I do not want to be called norwegian american. I don't want money for my ancestors nor will I pay it to others.

I was never given preference over another group, but blacks get it. I have never even gotten unemployment. Whatever I have is because I worked for it. Period.

I once heard a very learned black speaker discuss this topic and he said the poorest blacks in this country are better off than the blacks in africa. I don't know. I do know no group should get money for something that happened over 150 years ago. Black, white or purple.

Reperations are about as legitimate as the esteemed Rev. Louis Farricon having been in a mother space ship orbiting earth.

All of us should take responsibility for our own actions. Not look for handouts every time they can think of some new special treatment they think they should get. The government takes and wastes far too much of my money already. I'm not inclined to give more of it away.

I need to go take a valium now and admire a kuk or too.

Dave, please don't tell me to go ahead and say it again. You have exhausted my two typing fingers.

Thanks, Steve
 
Hi Danny:

Research Rev. Louis Farricon. I probably have the name spelled wrong. He is a prominent leader and activist who states that he was taken up into a giant flying saucer mother ship that had god (I could be wrong here) in it. His followers also believe this stuff. To each his own, but this is nuts.

Thanks, Steve
 
Wow. What a thoughtful and polite discussion.

I figure all of us here in the USA, those of us trying to reasonably fit in with the language and culture (even while preserving unique cultural elements), are all what we call Americans. I don't really give a damn if you're African-American, Asian-American, Euro-American, etc, etc, etc. Just be an American. I could give care less what color you are unless we're about to get in bed together, in which case green is my favorite color- just eat more chlorophyl, baby.

Seriously, our strength is our united resolve to be one community. Ultimately, our religions, sexes, or genetic backgrounds only matter to us personally, and shouldn't really be any concern of the community.

I would like to believe the United States is coming closer to this ideal, but am afraid. There seem to be many migrants to America who make no effort to integrate into the community as a whole, but stay ensconced in their own cultural enclave. If this trend continues, America- at least, all the good we hear in the word- will disappear. I don't want that to happen.

Slavery in the US was a great tragedy, but it was not isolated to the US, did not originate in the US, and did not end when American slavery ended. To speak of reparations based solely on skin color is ignorant and racist- and I ain't a racist, baby.

We can all just get along, but that means moving out of our privileged status quos. None of us ultimately need the victim's crutch, or the cultural elite's lofty throne. We're all just people, and we all need to just do the best when can, help others when we're able, and be happy.

John
 
I am not the one to offer it, but I think this discussion would benfit heavily from a scholarly study on the long term, ingrained societal effects of slavery. One cannot simply look at current laws and attitudes and determine that slavery is gone and can be forgotten. The effects of that period of time are deep and long lasting, affecting everything involved including areas of living, education, etc etc....although we may all think we are not rascists and that slavery is gone and long gone, it does not in any way mean that african americans, or any downtrodden group, has equal oppurtunity. Yes, given a completely equal background and means, there is equal oppurtnity on paper, but if you factor in the generational distress caused by those periods, you will quickly find that while the equal oppurtunity may exist in theory, it is not equally accessible and that the historical reasons for that inaccessibility can be traced directly to the periods of inequality. Many cite a single or small group of african americans and claim "see, things must be equal"....but that kind of attitude has nothing to do with what reparations were aimed at. I dont think reparations are the answer, but I also dont think the basis for them can be ignored, either. You cant wipe a slate clean when the blackboard is tainted....but thats my .02$
 
TikTock said:
I am not the one to offer it, but I think this discussion would benfit heavily from a scholarly study on the long term, ingrained societal effects of slavery.

or any downtrodden group, has equal oppurtunity. Yes, given a completely equal background and means, there is equal oppurtnity on paper, but if you factor in the generational distress caused by those periods, you will quickly find that while the equal oppurtunity may exist in theory, it is not equally accessible and that the historical reasons for that inaccessibility can be traced directly to the periods of inequality.
Click to expand...

This sounds like an argument for a sustained, long-run, program of reparations for not only the slaves, but every "downtrodden" group of people in America. We already have a system like that. The welfare system. It doesn't do its beneficiaries any good though. It trains them to rely on their "downtrodden" status rather than their work ethic and engenuity. Why would we want to reintroduce programs that have failed under a different name? Can you imagine the paperwork? The litmus test to proove you are downtrodden? No thanks. You'll have to settle for an apology, a life's not fair, and a your on your own. That's all I'm willing to give.
 
Andy?

Dunno, but...

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


The "general welfare" aspect seems to me to be a mandate, or at least an intention to do what we, as a society, can to encourage opportunities for the poor, the uneducated, the socially isolated, and the victims of discrimination--whether they be Irish, Cherokee, African, Mexican, or Canadian.

When is enough enough?

Dunno.

When I first read the piece, I just presumed it was some individual trying to get a following, or reinforce his own particular prejudice so that he could garner acclaim and some power or influence in his field. That he was being thresh-hold outrageous to create spotlight on himself.

I think America has a lot of folks who really don't have a chance. But, that is just my opinion. I know a few people who have earned their way out of awful circumstances through very hard work, and by tolerating treatment that would have had me homicidal.

Almost four decades ago, post college, early marraige time, a group of folks who had been friends in college, married and kept the friendships going, would meet once a month for a cheap night out at one anothers' apartments. One of the folks had gotten a job as a case-worker for the Chicago Welfare department. I asked Mike, if he had all the money and power he would want, what he would do to eliminate the welfare society he saw first-hand every day. He said, "let me think about it."

The next time we sat around and had time to speak of such things, he said, "It can't be done. Not without violating the rights of parents and the individuals. That's because you would have to change the values of the children who are growing up in a segment of society which is entirely different than the one of "middle-class" America. To do that, you'd have to raise the children. To do THAT, you'd have to take them from their families and somehow prohibit the people with core values you discourage from having more children that they would give the "wrong" value system to.

"That is playing god. You would be acting from such a position of condescension that it would be a variation of slavery."

I dunno. Obviously a lot of folks move from poverty to middle-class status. Obviously, a lot of folks don't have the opportunities to learn, earn and grow that others have.

It does seem to be a value dilemma. But, are my values better than someone else's? What right do I have to attempt to impose them on others?

I don't know how to resolve it.

Dunno.

Interesting discussion.
Thanks.
 
cliff355 said:
For those of us who have passed the 50 year mark, it is not all that "long gone." When my Grandpa was a kid, "vets" were Civil War vets. There were alot of former slave owners still around.
Click to expand...

Yup, Cliff's right about this and it affects a lot of us ndns. I was in a Sweatlodge with the grandson of Chief Bigfoot who's band was mostly killed by the 7th Calvary at Wounded Knee. He wasn't that much older than me. There's lots of us with family who's great grandparents at least fought in the ndn wars.

It is a difficult situation but I still think, feel, believe, that whoever wants an education can get it if they want it bad enough.
If I'd been smart and paid more attention in and to school than I did the girls my life would probably been a lot different.
How much I haven't a clue but I wasn't lazy when I was a teen as I worked and bought most of my own clothes from the time I was 15 on.
I could've graduated and went to college had I a mind too.
I was really very fortunate as I did finally get a role model in the form of my first real boss, Glen Greer.
Glen told me, "Never be a helper, get yourself a trade and be better than average in it and you will eventually have a fair degree of success."
I did and Glen was right. I blame my lack of education for a lot of my hot headeness as it seems folks who are well or at least better educated than I am have a way of getting along and discussing situations rather than just bulling through the problem.
Another one of my problems was that I would never compromise on honor, fairness, and generally what was the right thing to do.
I don't feel a bit bad about that and will never regret sticking up for the downtrodden no matter what color, creed, race, or religion they were.
I am living proof that a man can keep his culture and better himself in the world today, anyone can if they want to work but it seems there are a lot of lazy damned people in the world.

One thing I really would like to see the non-ndn world do for the ndns and that is get rid of the ndn mascots and sports teams that are named after ndns in any way.
There is at least one tribe that endorses mascots and because of the Seminoles not *getting it* the rest of the ndns have to put up with names such as the Redskins.
Maybe the Seminole never had a bounty on their scalps or other body parts that were red with the blood of their people and thus called Redskins.
Finally with the casinos and smokeshops the ndn is starting to make it and still there are those who don't like it and are trying to get,
Oh well, it's a never ending problem, I'll shut up for now.:rolleyes: :( :o

Maybe the year 2012 will take care of it as that's when the Aztecs calendar ends and is supposed to be the end of the world as we know it.
If it's true then none of this will matter as we're all flying on the same spaceship, this Earth we call home.

One really nice thing is that no matter what you call God, The Great Mystery, Unelanvhi, Wakan Tanka, Manitou, Yahweh or what. The Great Mystery/God is color blind.:thumbup: :D :cool:
 
I work with a black chick whom I would gladly pay reparations to!!!!! :D
 
I have seen kids out of the worst ghettos achieve the American dream. I have seen them out of the richest household go nowhere. The successes wanted to succeed. (Here by success I mean a self sufficient person.) They had resolve. They valued independance, and self reliance. They had, for the most part, parents also. They tried. That's all you've gotta do in America. If you buy into the system, and work at anything at all, you will be fine. Black, white, and everything in between. If you can manage to avoid constant bad decisions for most of your life, you'll be fine.

I'm sorry we kept slaves. I am southern, and my dad's side had slaves. There is paperwork, wills and things, you can check out if you look back into your family's pasts. (Those are public record. My aunt has traced our family every way but sunday.) I just don't see how paying someone would help. The sin is out there and theres no taking it back. We've got to learn from it, and ask for forgiveness. Then we've gotta move on. What else can we do? Paying won't help.
 
John:

Your comments are on the mark. When my relatives came to this country the wanted to be americans and fit in, in every way.

Many immigrants don't want to do that. They want to keep their culture, language and style of dress. That is not becoming an american.

About a year ago I was under contract to a large bank in Florida. I traveled the entire state for work. From Ft. Lauderdale south, it is no longer a part of the country I love. All the signs in the banks were in spanish. I had a language problem with bank employees because I only spoke english. I was dismayed over that. Oddly enough I was even discriminated against because I was a white anglo.

I feel I am seeing the decline of this great country in large part because of immigrants that do not want to integrate into society. Just get what they can from this country. The millions of illegal aliens are also damaging our society.

Moral values have deteriorated, no one is responsible for their actions, queers want to get married, the government is the answer to everyones problems and the principles upon which this country was founded no longer seem to apply whenever the ACLU backs some athiest, gay or whatever and sues.

This all started over reparations for blacks. Far worse was done to the original inhabitants of this land. I've only known three indians in my life. Each of them were business owners and good guys. They never bitched about the past. But, they sure had the right to.

It's so different than when I was young.

Got to go take another valium again tonight. I think this thread is hazardous to my health.

My .02 worth. Heck, make it a dollar.

Thanks, Steve
 
Tictock has a point, and I pointed to just such a study earlier in the D'souza book.
If anyone truly is interested in this subject, read that book...
 
I see many people, like my wife, that come over here from places like China and Vietnam, with nothing but a suitcase with a few clothes in it and don't speak the language.

They find a place to live, get a job, go to school, learn English fluently, get their Masters, get a better job, buy a big house, have kids etc, American Dream stuff, and I wonder why people who are born here and have support networks, relatives, possible scholarships etc. can't make it.

But I can't really complain, I've had it pretty easy myself.

Eric.
 
SilverFoxKnows said:
It seems to me that too few people want to take responsibility for their own actions. Maybe it's worse, here, in CA but it looks to be a widespread problem. Want to shake down a major fast food chain? Put a finger in your food or spill some coffee on yourself. Mishap with a powertool? Sue Black and Decker. Can't find a job? Must be an "ism" (racism, sexism, ageism, etc.). Who can we sue for that?

The black community needs the same thing the white (or any) community needs. For father's to stick around. For mothers not to use the TV as a babysitter. For somebody in a position to heard to tell these young folks that "fashnizzle" is not a word.

For every music/movie/sports star there are a million guys doing minimum wage grunt jobs with no easy way out. Sling some weed, go to jail, racist system, daddy didn't stick around, too cool for school, baby mama's...

If you look like a thug, dress like a thug, talk like a thug, act like a thug don't surprised when you can't find a decent job. This goes for black gangstas, white skate punks, Mexican vatos and Vietnamese low riders.

School is hard, work is hard, parenting is hard but nobody wants to hear it, not when you can just demand things.

That came out more like a rant, and less focused, than I intended. Sorry.

Frank
Click to expand...

Wow, I really think you nailed it Frank! And I thought it was very well focused. There are no shortcuts to working your ass off and making the best of your situation, no matter what your background. There has to be a reason Vietnamese boat people can come here in rags and after 20 years own a chain of stores. They deny themselves everything, sleep 4 to a room to save $ and work like the dickens. And they have the language barrier to contend with as well, and very little cultural support.

If some dark-skinned Americans born in this country with far more to start off with are still running behind those boat people after several decades of opportunity, then I question whether more Government $ is going to fix the problem.

Norm

P.S. Just read the whole thread and Eswartz's comments just before my post are amazingly like mine! Great minds think alike I guess. :D

Seriously, there has to be a reason that other cultures can somehow fit in but Americans born here cannot, and I think the Governments "help" has had the opposite affect in many cases.

Also, reparations for the Japanese interned in WWII are also held up as a precident for black reparations, but to me the two situations are not parallel at all. To my mind the US Gov got off easy at $20K per interned American. Those people were citizens who had their rights as citizens summarily dismissed, and in many cases lost all that they owned. That was done by this Government in this century, and those payments were long overdue.
 
oiy. a ramble: my dad did some one of them fancy geneological history siftings... we found out that on my mom's side we got a smidgeon of celtic like races that were booted out of their countries and were persecuted and some of them married the locals and there's some ndn in me as a result, and on my dad's side we got our cjdn and cndn and even more ndn as the result of more persecutions and bootings. good stuff being a mutt. naturally, we were most likely slaves, indentured, or so poor as to laugh. the bigger people's took our stuff even in the land of the free, and booted us around even more. settlings occurred in the far northeast or the deep swampy south, those clever cjdns. we don't owe nobody nothing. hell, not even them revenuers, but they keep coming around for 1/2 of their share of nothing. someone cutting checks? we're in line, and damn near the front, everyone else, get behind my dad, as he's the only one left of his extensive family, most of which served and died for their country. repartations? sign me up. on the other hand, we've also taken nothing from nobody, and worked hard for what we got, i paid for school, on my own, worked my ass off when friends were just partying. i'm doing okay, and i expect many of those old friends are probably on the dole, if they're lucky.

bladite

(smiley captioned for the humor impaired :>)
 
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