Retained austenite/ martensite refinement

They are two different processes ,RA transformation is fast shear type, and tweeking the lattice is a slow process as is the formation of eta carbides following that.

Is that why steel phases like bainite seem to have both diffusive and dislocative properties, because the dislocations allow "room" for diffusive transformation or the precipitation of carbides like the eta carbides? I ask because I have a theory and correct me if I mess up any of the theory, as you cool the metal it changes phases to reach the lowest energy state (aka equilibrium) when cooled quickly it shears to make martensite and when cooled slowly it diffuses to form pearlite, spheroidite, etc. Bainite seems to have structures from both types of transformation, so if we can create nucleation points for fine grain growth of diffusive phases, dropping the temperature quickly enough to form dislocations but slowly enough to avoid the larger shearing of the martensite phase, would that allow for the lowest possible bainite with minimal (theoretical zero) martensite? It would seem that because of the large shear strains from martensite formation that it reduces the total hardness vs toughness, since bainite is tougher for a given hardness than martensite (probably not by as much as some people claim, but every little bit counts) but is typically too low on the scale of hardness.

My theory is this, as the steel gets closer to equilibrium the driving force of the transformation is reduced, so as dislocations form and carbides diffuse, the total driving force is reduced since the steel is getting closer to equilibrium at that temperature, so the temperature of the steel can be constantly reduced to increase the driving force more, keeping it just above the stress inducing shear effects of martensite, yet dropping fast enough to form a phase hard enough to keep a good edge. I was actually talking to someone related to Frank Richtig, the maker of the so called indestructible blades from Clarkson Nebraska, and this is one theory as to what his heat treat was, constantly reduced temperature kept just between martensite and bainite. Analysis of his blades found lots of extra fine carbide banding, which to my mind seems like it could be related to this combination of diffusion and dislocation with fine eta carbides, and the analysis also shows the grain in his blades most closely match either martensite with an incredibly high tempering temperature (aprox. 900*F) or bainite formed at a really low temperature (right next to martensite start temp). The hardness of his blades is also slightly lower than what some people would consider "ideal" or even remotely acceptable for edge holding in kitchen knives, let alone steel chopping knives.

I'm no metallurgist so I'm probably completely off on this but I am completely fascinated by metallurgy and not just what works but exactly why it works and how to improve it, and reach the maximum potential that I can as a bladesmith and heat treater.
 
I don't understand your term " dislocative properties " .Dislocations aren't talked about here very often but they play an important part in metallurgy. Taking a very close look at martensite [electron microscope] shows that martensite is packed with dislocations while annealed metal has far fewer. As we work metal those dislocations will try to move but are slowed by precipitates and even tangling with each other .I fairly recently saw a video ,at very high magnification, that showed a dislocation hitting a precipitate bending around it and breaking into two pieces ! Great stuff .
I've seen articles about Richtig but don't have a link , can you supply one ?
 
I don't understand your term " dislocative properties " .Dislocations aren't talked about here very often but they play an important part in metallurgy. Taking a very close look at martensite [electron microscope] shows that martensite is packed with dislocations while annealed metal has far fewer. As we work metal those dislocations will try to move but are slowed by precipitates and even tangling with each other .I fairly recently saw a video ,at very high magnification, that showed a dislocation hitting a precipitate bending around it and breaking into two pieces ! Great stuff .
I've seen articles about Richtig but don't have a link , can you supply one ?

This is the only article on richtigs knife analysis that I could find now. https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/v...tig-as-featured-in-ripleys-believe-it-or-not-

When I say dislocative properties I mean to refer to the difference between the two theories on bainite formation, displacive and diffusive, the displacive theory relating bainite and martensite with shear transformation, hence my misuse of the word dislocative properties. Sorry, as much as I understand the principles behind how stuff works I can never get the terminology quite right.

Richtig was the first influence on me becoming a bladesmith, his relative Dale Novak and my grandfather knew each other a while back. I know a lot of his claims probably come from very careful edge geometry and precise hammer wielding, but there seems to be something there that most people haven't quite figured out yet since his original HT method was lost. It was said that he was using a technique similar to mar/ausquench/tempering over a decade before the technique was actually "discovered".

Thanks for all the replies, it's a lot to take in. I love knowledge both for its practical use and simply for the sake of learning, you never know where that knowledge might take you until you try.
 
I don't understand your term " dislocative properties " .Dislocations aren't talked about here very often but they play an important part in metallurgy. Taking a very close look at martensite [electron microscope] shows that martensite is packed with dislocations while annealed metal has far fewer. As we work metal those dislocations will try to move but are slowed by precipitates and even tangling with each other .I fairly recently saw a video ,at very high magnification, that showed a dislocation hitting a precipitate bending around it and breaking into two pieces ! Great stuff .
I've seen articles about Richtig but don't have a link , can you supply one ?

That video sounds pretty awesome, I'm a visual learner and love those kinds of videos. One on youtube that I saw was showing a slow motion of martensite plates "cracking", the video made it look like a china plate cracking into pieces.

I found this on the bainite wiki page, "The relief associated with bainite is an invariant—plane strain with a large shear component. The only diffusion that occurs by this theory is during the formation of the carbide phase (usually cementite) between the ferrite plates." and I automatically connected that to the eta carbides forming in the dislocations caused by cryotreating. I can't find the page right now but a military paper on "super" bainite formed with similar temperatures as what I'm suggesting implied that carbides were precipitating in a similar way to what I'm suggesting. They were apparently able to get an incredibly fine grain structure but like most bainite would still be unsuited to most knife designs, hence my curiosity that getting closer to or slightly overlapping the martensite "border" during transformation might create a superior blade if the transformation goes right. Richtig's blades having a much lower hardness than most (HRC 36-56 according to the paper, even on the cutting edge) also seemed to imply something similar to bainite. Now I don't believe in some kind of miracle steel or anything like that, but I do believe in using engineering and innovations to reach the absolute peak performance from a given blade.
 
I could be wrong - probably am :)

Aus grain form above Ac1 and finalized by Ae1 cut off temperature. Bainite direction and orientation depend on cooling thermal vector. Bainite carbon diffusing/partitioning is less coherent as temperature approaching Ms. Granularity of such partition and precipitation rate of cementite depends on other elements - such as Si or Al. Si is a cementite suppressor - hence promote stabilized RA. Note - partition/sheaf spacing is not the same as aus grain.

Lazy - the process you mentioned, basically Austempering at Martempering temperature, albeit hold time for such bainite formation could be hours/weeks. Theoretically, such bainite (w/ normal steels Si) would have hardness around 50rc. I've made a few duplex & tri-plex blades (bainite/mart, B/Mart/RA) but didn't tried almost Ms bainite. My 52100 blades were around 58rc - seem to roll too easily and PITA to produce a burr-free apex. Guessing, grain of my blades around 8um. Now, I've a metallurgy microscope but I doubt I will find those blades - if they are still around.

btw - There are nano grain bainitic steels where Si is at least 3% by mass. iirc, Their tensile strength around 1-1.5GPa. Whereas a std ht 52100 TS around 2GPa. Look up Prof bhadeshia (prominent bainite expert). His latest 3 lectures (released last week) are great - start with 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe1hG3_cgeU&index=6&list=WL
 
There has been some discussion of Mr. Richtig of late. I may be remembering this wrong, but I think I recall hearing someone suggest that he may have discovered by trial and error what subsequent people like Howard Clark figured out with bainitic/martensitic "blends".
 
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In my time of pounding metal, I have heard a couple of things about burrs. The first thing that I was told by Bailey Bradshaw was that if I could get a long floppy burr setting the edge on the belt grinder that you could push around with your finger like it was tissue paper and it would come right off with just a couple of light pressure stroke on a fine stone, then I had probably achieved some pretty fine grain in my W2 blades. A number of years later, I heard that if you had a troublesome burr that was a pain to get rid of, like you might see on some Japanese kitchen knives, you may have a problem with RA. Anyone have any input on those?
I could be wrong - probably am :)

Aus grain form above Ac1 and finalized by Ae1 cut off temperature. Bainite direction and orientation depend on cooling thermal vector. Bainite carbon diffusing/partitioning is less coherent as temperature approaching Ms. Granularity of such partition and precipitation rate of cementite depends on other elements - such as Si or Al. Si is a cementite suppressor - hence promote stabilized RA. Note - partition/sheaf spacing is not the same as aus grain.

Lazy - the process you mentioned, basically Austempering at Martempering temperature, albeit hold time for such bainite formation could be hours/weeks. Theoretically, such bainite (w/ normal steels Si) would have hardness around 50rc. I've made a few duplex & tri-plex blades (bainite/mart, B/Mart/RA) but didn't tried almost Ms bainite. My 52100 blades were around 58rc - seem to roll too easily and PITA to produce a burr-free apex. Guessing, grain of my blades around 8um. Now, I've a metallurgy microscope but I doubt I will find those blades - if they are still around.

btw - There are nano grain bainitic steels where Si is at least 3% by mass. iirc, Their tensile strength around 1-1.5GPa. Whereas a std ht 52100 TS around 2GPa. Look up Prof bhadeshia (prominent bainite expert). His latest 3 lectures (released last week) are great - start with 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe1hG3_cgeU&index=6&list=WL
 
If possible i would not find any burr expecially in kitchen knives...less burr is better, and probably the RA thing is spot on.
Also, sharpening with a belt grinder is something i wouldn't do unless under coolant, otherwise the burr is the result of softened steel.
 
Also, sharpening with a belt grinder is something i wouldn't do unless under coolant, otherwise the burr is the result of softened steel.

I agree.

Yeah, if you're getting a large durable burr and you're grinding your edge you have a heat problem. People think that just because the blade doesn't get "hot" and once they feel the edge with their fingers it isn't "too hot" that everything is fine. I don't think that's the case. The actual apex of the cutting edge, where the burr forms, is an increasingly small area of metal approaching a volume of zero. Frictional heating is being pumped into a miniscule volume with very little thermal mass. It's pretty obvious to me that you can overheat the first few thou of an edge grinding it dry.

Edge leading vs edge trailing creates a different burr situation. It's almost impossible to get a good sharp edge on a belt with the edge leading because microscopic bunching up of the belt is rounding off the cutting edge as soon as it is formed. Sharpening an edge that way and forming a burr then buffing off that burr gives you an obtuse blended in micro bevel of a sharpened burr and might shave hair but it won't be as durable or sharp as a nice honed edge.

I sharpen knives here in a semi production setting. To get good results they are ground in edge leading under flood coolant, then refined the same way on a film, but the last few passes on both side are done with the edge trailing to prevent the microscopically bunched up belt that rounds the very apex of the edge, but creates a burr inline with the edge. If you use coolant and don't overheat it, this burr is hard and wants to flake off. A few passes edge leading on a hard oil stone grinds the edge down to a clean micro bevel that is both metallurgically sound and durable, and properly sharp.
 
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Thanks for the microscope focus on what's happening Nathan.
I'm not a machinist (maybe one day) but i like too the approach that takes into account the behaviours of metal on a such small scale.
At least to me is the edge that matters (the science)....of course then is the knife we build behind it (the art) :)
 
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As amazing as it is to theorize and understand all of these principles, the best test is actual examples. Once I get my lead bath working I will test out a few of these heat treat styles on some 1084 and (when I get my shipment from Aldo) O1. I was thinking of making a few batches of smaller blades, kind of like those utility razors, and making a jig to sharpen them all equally to the same level and angle, and another fixture to do some cutting tests of carefully controlled materials, I was thinking maybe some controlled high grit abrasive mixed with silicone for a material to test cuts on, then 2 or 3 blades each with slicing and chopping motions, then 2 or 3 each, cutting through plain silicone onto a wooden then glass surface. At least 12 of each HT type, 3 for each test (so far) and at least 5 heat treats so about 70 or so blades total, but they don't have to be too big, so not necessarily a huge investment of materials for some definitive results. After the cutting edges are examined I can try a fixture that could swing a weight at them from a specific height to test how many impacts it takes to break one sample from each ht style and another fixture to test how much weight to bend each blade. It'll probably take a while to make all of these jigs and fixtures but if anyone thinks it might work or has any suggestions for heat treat, testing, or steel types I'd love to hear it. I wonder if I might be able to get my hands on some more precise equipment for viewing grain or measuring the exact properties of each steel, right now my whole shop is pretty much home made.

Lazy - the process you mentioned, basically Austempering at Martempering temperature, albeit hold time for such bainite formation could be hours/weeks. Theoretically, such bainite (w/ normal steels Si) would have hardness around 50rc. I've made a few duplex & tri-plex blades (bainite/mart, B/Mart/RA) but didn't tried almost Ms bainite. My 52100 blades were around 58rc - seem to roll too easily and PITA to produce a burr-free apex. Guessing, grain of my blades around 8um. Now, I've a metallurgy microscope but I doubt I will find those blades - if they are still around.]

I'll definitely keep an eye out for such happenings when sharpening the blades, maybe add an edge flex test as well, if you or anyone else can think of anything to add to my list of tests I'd love to try it out.
 
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When testing, edge geometry is the most important factor, hence consistency is a must. e.g. my 1st pass geometry 0.012" behind edge thick, 12dps 1K grit. 2nd pass geo 0.008" thick 10dps 5K grit. I gave up cutting soft stuff test - too tiring & time consuming. Recently, I just whittle in sequence: Australian Buloke (can substitute with African Blackwood or old seasoned dry bamboo with 3/4" diameter, btw - I found Lignum Vitae is not as strong as AB); 3/4" aluminum rod (old mop handle); 5/16" mild steel rod. You can tell how well your blade perform by looking at if damage amt & mode. Good perf blades should still be able to slice newsprint after wood & aluminum.

My test piece, basically a blade with small coupon attaches near the tang. I break this coupon to see AQ grain and polish this coupon for optical or SEM imaging. If you can't discern individual grain at 20+ magnifications - congrats, you've super fine grain. Ease of sharpening & dry shaving ability also indicate fine grain & good microstructure.

Damages from test above will give you hint of strength & toughness. A good tough 62rc blade, edge actually will rolled/deformed if you hard whack the edge (spine rest on cutting board) with the 5/16" steel rod.

This ht rabbit hole is deep and expensive like heck. I am still seeing sun light ;) Oh here is my list of steels I mangled the last 30 days: 52100, 5160, CruforgeV, 1084, 15N20, Hitachi Blue#2 & White#2, W2, 1095. When playing a game of grain nucleation & carbide configuration, necessary to varying the carbon volume (locked in carbide and in solution).

Zener Pinning when you fall into the ht rabbit hole :cool:
 
Reminds me of the richtig knife test of hammering through solid steel. I just started those video lectures but I'm at work without my headphones right now so I can't quite tell what he's saying. So I was thinking of mechanizing the process of testing the blades, like a gravity fed low speed reciprocating saw style for the slicing tests or a spring loaded arm with a cam for the chopping tests. I have access to some pretty fine tolerance bearings and lots of scrap steel so I'll see if I can weld something together that can hold the blade steady enough to avoid slipping or rolling an edge. Maybe try the tests with abrasive loaded silicone and instead of the cutting board tests try something with the wood chopping and aluminum cutting with the spring and cam setup, or maybe a device that imparts an impact to the spine of the blade to cut through the aluminum. In this case at least mechanical testing seems the way to go, that way human error is completely removed. I love both the idea of human test and mechanical test, because the mechanical test gives you unbiased results, while human tests often greater mimic real life scenarios (to a point at least). I have a small batch of sub micron alumina powder I was considering for another diy waterstone, but this might be another good use for the material.
 
I am talking about the "persistent burr" that you hear people talk about when sharpening the Japanese knives made out of blue steel, etc.
I agree.

Yeah, if you're getting a large durable burr and you're grinding your edge you have a heat problem. People think that just because the blade doesn't get "hot" and once they feel the edge with their fingers it isn't "too hot" that everything is fine. I don't think that's the case. The actual apex of the cutting edge, where the burr forms, is an increasingly small area of metal approaching a volume of zero. Frictional heating is being pumped into a miniscule volume with very little thermal mass. It's pretty obvious to me that you can overheat the first few thou of an edge grinding it dry.

Edge leading vs edge trailing creates a different burr situation. It's almost impossible to get a good sharp edge on a belt with the edge leading because microscopic bunching up of the belt is rounding off the cutting edge as soon as it is formed. Sharpening an edge that way and forming a burr then buffing off that burr gives you an obtuse blended in micro bevel of a sharpened burr and might shave hair but it won't be as durable or sharp as a nice honed edge.

I sharpen knives here in a semi production setting. To get good results they are ground in edge leading under flood coolant, then refined the same way on a film, but the last few passes on both side are done with the edge trailing to prevent the microscopically bunched up belt that rounds the very apex of the edge, but creates a burr inline with the edge. If you use coolant and don't overheat it, this burr is hard and wants to flake off. A few passes edge leading on a hard oil stone grinds the edge down to a clean micro bevel that is both metallurgically sound and durable, and properly sharp.
 
I have never hear of this persistent burr, but the blue is a tungsten steel with great apex stability. You could get a real edge so thin that it will resemble an "usable" burr...is it this what you are talking about?
 
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